Foursomes-Blight or Blessing?

[Snakey]

Are foursomes killing the enjoyment of Golf,they are meant to to put as many people through a course in the shortest time.But does it? In my experience foursomes (even with carts )are like watching the grass grow.Four guys tee off ,carts go to one players ball,he hits,cart goes to second players ball usually a long way from first guy,he hits and ad nauseum.Last weekend 3 of us were walking the course with pull carts (walking!) and we were continually held up by the four in front criss crossing the fairways on carts that go a lot faster than walking pace turning a 3 hour round into a 4 and change round.They drive to the ball get out wander over to the ball ,identify the ball wander back to the cart select a club wander back to the ball hit it wander back to the cart and the process is repeated with the second guy.After getting that out of my system my point is ,if you walk the course everyone goes to their own ball separately ready to hit in turn and in my opinion 3 is the maximum number that is optimal.Anybody got ideas about this?

[Golfingdad]

Raise all greens fees by 33%?

And from the sound of it, it's not the fourth person that slowed you guys down, but the carts that were the problem.  The solution for that would be to raise greens fees by 75% and give everybody their own cart.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Raise all greens fees by 33%?

Wouldn't necessarily have to - smaller groups would equate to more tee times per day. Would it even out in terms of income to the course? I don't know...

It's an interesting question though. Is there a linear correlation between number of people in the group and pace of play? Does a foursome take exactly twice as long as a twosome? If so, could a course get the same number of people through the course (and therefore make the same profit) if they sent twosomes out every 4 minutes instead of foursomes out every 8 minutes? Could they send singles out every 2 minutes?

And if there's *not* a linear correlation, then what's the sweet spot?  Has it been proven to be groups of four, or is that just because of tradition?

[meenman]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Wouldn't necessarily have to - smaller groups would equate to more tee times per day. Would it even out in terms of income to the course? I don't know...

It's an interesting question though. Is there a linear correlation between number of people in the group and pace of play? Does a foursome take exactly twice as long as a twosome? If so, could a course get the same number of people through the course (and therefore make the same profit) if they sent twosomes out every 4 minutes instead of foursomes out every 8 minutes? Could they send singles out every 2 minutes?

And if there's *not* a linear correlation, then what's the sweet spot?  Has it been proven to be groups of four, or is that just because of tradition?

A twosome does not finish in half the time of a foursome - on an empty course they will play quicker - but not everyone enjoys playing speed golf either.

We have the issue at my club - double tee times every 7.5 minutes. If you take less than 2 hours on your front, you are going to wait to start your back. They were going to do away with the double tee times to appease the few guys that demand a 3 hour round. The problem with that is now half of our weekend tee times that went off before 9:30 would now be stretched 9:30-11:30. No one pays monthly fees to tee off that late on a Saturday - it has been squashed for now.

Slow golfers are slow golfers, whether in carts or groups of 2,3 or 4.

The walking argument does not hold much water over here. I have played 4 different courses over the last 2 weeks and any time *saved* by 4 walkers going directly to their balls would be lost in the distance from greens to tees (the fact that one of these courses broke my receipt down by green fees and cart fees cracked me up - not only could you not walk - there is no way anyone could)

Golfers need to be educated on how to play ready golf and how to effectively use a cart - when me and my normal cart partner are on opposite sides of the fairway, one is dropped off and the other goes to his ball until we can both hit.

I've seen courses with 6 minute tee times and there is a backup about 6 tee times in. One place I played this weekend had 10 minute times and we never saw a golfer in front or in back of us.

[David in FL]

Are foursomes killing the enjoyment of Golf,they are meant to to put as many people through a course in the shortest time.But does it? In my experience foursomes (even with carts )are like watching the grass grow.Four guys tee off ,carts go to one players ball,he hits,cart goes to second players ball usually a long way from first guy,he hits and ad nauseum.Last weekend 3 of us were walking the course with pull carts (walking!) and we were continually held up by the four in front criss crossing the fairways on carts that go a lot faster than walking pace turning a 3 hour round into a 4 and change round.They drive to the ball get out wander over to the ball ,identify the ball wander back to the cart select a club wander back to the ball hit it wander back to the cart and the process is repeated with the second guy.After getting that out of my system my point is ,if you walk the course everyone goes to their own ball separately ready to hit in turn and in my opinion 3 is the maximum number that is optimal.Anybody got ideas about this?

It wouldn't matter if only singles were allowed out. The slowest group, whether one golfer or 5 dictates the pace for all behind them. There are slow golfers and fast golfers.....neither the number in the group nor the mode of transport has much to do with it.

[NM Golf]

At the end of the day it always comes down to the individual golfer. Some are fast, some are slow. I have had to wait on a two-some before while playing as a foursome.

Golf courses are businesses, they have to make money to stay open. Golf courses cannot concern themselves only with getting every person around in 3 hours. They try and get as many paying golfers on the course as possible. After that we do our best to get everyone around in 4.5 hours or less, but it doesn't always happen.

If you want to play in 3 hours I always suggest that people join an expensive and exclusive country club that is not so concerned with packing the golf course.

[Snakey]

Wow,some deep and thoughful replies,but I think Meenman nailed it ,cart etiquette along with normal golf etiquette .While I wasn't advocating "speed golf" when you get in a rhythm time flows smooth and you finish before you know it.As to carts they were brought in to speed people down to their ball at 20km to free up tee times but is negated by people doing what I said ,One guy waiting while his partner hits before both going across to the other ball therefore slowing things down.As Meenman called it ,drop off your partner then go to your own ball.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Snakey

Are foursomes killing the enjoyment of Golf,they are meant to to put as many people through a course in the shortest time.But does it? In my experience foursomes (even with carts )are like watching the grass grow.Four guys tee off ,carts go to one players ball,he hits,cart goes to second players ball usually a long way from first guy,he hits and ad nauseum.Last weekend 3 of us were walking the course with pull carts (walking!) and we were continually held up by the four in front criss crossing the fairways on carts that go a lot faster than walking pace turning a 3 hour round into a 4 and change round.They drive to the ball get out wander over to the ball ,identify the ball wander back to the cart select a club wander back to the ball hit it wander back to the cart and the process is repeated with the second guy.After getting that out of my system my point is ,if you walk the course everyone goes to their own ball separately ready to hit in turn and in my opinion 3 is the maximum number that is optimal.Anybody got ideas about this?

To be a little pedantic, you aren't talking about a foursome you are talking about a fourball.  A foursome (alternate shot) should play at the speed of a two-ball.

[JerryTimes]

I can't stand being behind a foursome.  Last time I was out, (which was a couple months ago because we have a new baby) a friend and I were walking and constantly were waiting behind a foursome with carts.  They would constantly drive to each ball and hit one at a time .

[AmazingWhacker]

The answer!

[ApocG10]

We had people at our course who have tried bitching that they want to play the course in three hours, and think everyone else should keep the same pace. The pro and council both told them that the average time was 4:00 to 4:20. They bickered and bitched, but it was only a few. If you dont have 5 hours to spare, dont try to golf 18 holes.

I enjoy my foursome golf outings with friends and competitors. I dont care about pace as much as some of you, but I do play fast naturally. I golf to not only improve, but enjoy myself and have fun.

[ApocG10]

Originally Posted by AmazingWhacker

The answer!

I actually think they would be great if they were real golf ones.

[jcorfive]

Lack of knowledge as to proper use of cart.  When I play with some friends there may be one or two shots that need hard searching.  Given golfers a, b, c, d with a,b and c,d paired, everyone hits and everyone watches everyone else's tee shots.  a and b will drive to whichever ball is most convenient and that player will get out, take the club they want or spend a few seconds at cart deciding, then take said club and the next club (usually a wedge of sorts) and his/her putter.  The other will then drive to his/her ball and play the hole with the cart and park near the green.  c and d do likewise.  We wave arms overhead and use both arms in a come hear manner if extra help is needed.  If some help is needed: depending on convenience either a/b or c/d will play his/her shot then hop in the cart and look for said ball or deliver a club.  We also keep an eye out to what others are doing in the group.  We aren't the best players in the world (shoot in the 90s-115s) but we know how to keep it moving.  Combine this with playing provisionals where needed and you may be waiting on the group ahead.  Having some situational awareness and a bit of preparation goes a long way.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by ApocG10

We had people at our course who have tried bitching that they want to play the course in three hours, and think everyone else should keep the same pace. The pro and council both told them that the average time was 4:00 to 4:20. They bickered and bitched, but it was only a few. If you dont have 5 hours to spare, dont try to golf 18 holes.

I enjoy my foursome golf outings with friends and competitors. I dont care about pace as much as some of you, but I do play fast naturally. I golf to not only improve, but enjoy myself and have fun.

Totally agree.  While I don't want to stand around and wait for every shot and end up with a 5 hour round, I don't want to race around the course in 3 either.  I like golf and enjoy being out there for 4 hours.

[Mattplusness]

I don't understand why the OP thinks that walking is slower than riding. Every time I've walked and got paired up with a threesome I got to my ball in time to hit it before anyone had to wait.

Granted one some holes there might be a huge path around some hazard, but generally, it's the same pace.

[B-Con]

My guess is that 4 or 5 is probably the most efficient group size in terms of total throughput for the day, assuming you send out nothing but full groups all day long. The gap from 3 to 4 adds 33% carrying capacity while possibly not adding more than 33% extra time, so it's probably more efficient than 3. From 4 to 5 you add 25% capacity, but the new guy might cause them to take a quarter extra time. It seems like a toss-up on whether 5 continues the trend of being more efficient. But once you reach 6, I would think the efficiency graph would start going downhill. Once person seems likely to add about 20% of time to a group, especially in a turn-based group such as golf. And the more people you have, the more likely people are to be taking a drop, re-hitting, looking for a lost ball, and there's confusion of order of play, putting, etc. And to me seems like people don't work effectively in groups of 6. (Most conversations break off into sub-conversations once they hit 6 members, teams of co-workers form sub-teams once they have 6, etc. Trying to remember if I read a study once to this effect, but at any rate I think that I've observed it on my own.) Threesomes would also introduce scheduling problems. A lot of foursomes are just two pairs of twosomes, but if the course only sent out threesomes then they could no longer mix-and-match twosomes. They'd be pairing up singles with twosomes or requiring full threesomes to get a tee time. Busy courses that don't change to accept tee-times for singles might require full threesomes for teetimes, which means no more tee times for just you and a friend.

[cc41139]

The SC GA has done a study that says the fastest rate of play is with 3somes. This is now used in the World Amateur tournament in Myrtle Beach, and rounds that were 5.5 to 6 hours, are now in the 4.5 hour range.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Mattplusness

I don't understand why the OP thinks that walking is slower than riding. Every time I've walked and got paired up with a threesome I got to my ball in time to hit it before anyone had to wait.

Granted one some holes there might be a huge path around some hazard, but generally, it's the same pace.

He doesn't.  He basically said the exact opposite ... that the guys in carts drove around in circles slowing them down while they were walking.