Opinion on pros and cons of private club membership

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjduffers

250 rounds a year for $7000? That's less than $30 per round. In other words, it's real cheap (I mean inexpensive), as around here (Bay Area in CA), that's what it costs to walk 18 on a muni course. I am not sure what you would have to complain about...  For me, it would be a no-brainer.

I'm not complaining at all, my fiance and I love it.  Most people don't play as much as we do, although most of the guys I play with are all over 100 rounds a year.  Was just trying to make the point that it is a luxury, not really a bargain unless you play as much as we do and don't mind paying the initiation fee.

My problem with that is that you have to play all 250 or however many rounds on the same course to be able to make that statement.  I'll play 25 rounds on one course, 20 some on another, and then scatter another 15-30 rounds on 8 - 10 other courses.  By the time I'm done I'll probably have no more invested per round than you do, but I'll have played up to a dozen different courses along the way.

[jsgolfer]

My problem with that is that you have to play all 250 or however many rounds on the same course to be able to make that statement.  I'll play 25 rounds on one course, 20 some on another, and then scatter another 15-30 rounds on 8 - 10 other courses.  By the time I'm done I'll probably have no more invested per round than you do, but I'll have played up to a dozen different courses along the way.

Not all of the rounds are at my course. Although the majority are. Country Clubs aren't for everyone, but in my area if you don't want a 5 hour plus round on the weekend, it's the only way to go. Plus our course is a challenge, is always in great condition and I don't mind having to play it often.

[meenman]

Our club just actually lowered our monthly dues while finally advertising single memberships (for as long as I can remember it was family only)

My dues went down $40/month and they added an F+B minimum of $30/month - which will not affect me since that $30 can be spent on the cart girl during one bad round plus I eat and drink there every week anyway.

Since getting my guys to move up to the gold tees, we have a much bigger circle of who to play with and now know everyone we could be paired up with in tourneys. The one thing my club lacked was a significant amount of high handicappers playing from the whites. (the tee boxes were always an age thing and a bit of selling had to be done to allow us to move up) 6000 yards may feel a little short to us but 6500 was too long.

Our GM feels that the future of private clubs is modest dues with maybe a slightly higher cart fee - but people will need a membership to play at these clubs.

[ghalfaire]

Not all of the rounds are at my course. Although the majority are. Country Clubs aren't for everyone, but in my area if you don't want a 5 hour plus round on the weekend, it's the only way to go. Plus our course is a challenge, is always in great condition and I don't mind having to play it often.

You can seldom justify the fees of a private club based on economics.  Probably 99% of the people who belong to a private club have a reason other than economics in mind.  I know in my case it is to avoid a 54 mile round trip to play the nearest non executive public course.  I have to say however that on weekends it isn't unusual to have long rounds (maybe 5 hours at times) even at the club.  I guess trying to "push" members is more difficult than trying to "push" the public at a public course.  This is especially true when many private clubs are struggling financially.  You just can't piss off the paying members of an equity club as they are the owners too.

[jsgolfer]

[INDENT][/INDENT][quote name="ghalfaire" url="/t/64019/opinion-on-pros-and-cons-of-private-club-membership/90#post_1132919"]You can seldom justify the fees of a private club based on economics.  Probably 99% of the people who belong to a private club have a reason other than economics in mind.  I know in my case it is to avoid a 54 mile round trip to play the nearest non executive public course.  I have to say however that on weekends it isn't unusual to have long rounds (maybe 5 hours at times) even at the club.  I guess trying to "push" members is more difficult than trying to "push" the public at a public course.  This is especially true when many private clubs are struggling financially.  You just can't piss off the paying members of an equity club as they are the owners too.  [/quote] Not sure why that last post wouldn't get sent correctly. I agree that economics play a part but not the entire reason. Luckily we do have a 4 hr and 15 min requirement and it is enforced. Has not been a problem as long as I've been a member.

[logo]

My problem with that is that you have to play all 250 or however many rounds on the same course to be able to make that statement.  I'll play 25 rounds on one course, 20 some on another, and then scatter another 15-30 rounds on 8 - 10 other courses.  By the time I'm done I'll probably have no more invested per round than you do, but I'll have played up to a dozen different courses along the way.

I actually prefer to play one course most of the time. I get familiar, know the workers, etc. That is my personality though - I hate change. At my home course, which is public, I paid just under $1000 a year and can walk any time and get unlimited range balls. There are no other fees or restrictions. The private club which is literally about .5 mile from my house has a monthly fee of $400 plus $500 quarterly food fee, + cart fee, +initiation fee. I just couldnt justify it based on economics.

[phan52]

You can seldom justify the fees of a private club based on economics.  Probably 99% of the people who belong to a private club have a reason other than economics in mind.  I know in my case it is to avoid a 54 mile round trip to play the nearest non executive public course.  I have to say however that on weekends it isn't unusual to have long rounds (maybe 5 hours at times) even at the club.  I guess trying to "push" members is more difficult than trying to "push" the public at a public course.  This is especially true when many private clubs are struggling financially.  You just can't piss off the paying members of an equity club as they are the owners too.

I would disagree with that. At a private club you have a captive audience and, as long as you are serious about enforcement, they will be very aware of their speed of play. We inform the membership of the expectations all the time. The expected limit (4:15) is posted everywhere, including on the scorecards. At the halfway house, we list the foursomes by name with the expected arrival time so they know where they stand in the middle of their round. There are warning letters at the first offense and consequences when they exceed the limit multiple times (which almost never happens). Everybody takes it very seriously. In the end, we find that the pace of play is generally pretty good.

[DaveP043]

I'll echo jsgolfer and phan52 regarding the pace of play.  At our club, and at every other private club I visit in this area, the pace of play is almost always good.  We definitely ARE a captive audience in a sense, but we also have a peer pressure component working to keep some of the slower players moving.  I think it must be a much more delicate situation to insist that a player at a daily-fee course speed up his play, when you need that same player to show up and pay his money next weekend too.

I've noticed a number of references to "equity" clubs.  I don't know the numbers, but a significant number of private club memberships are not equity based.  The initiation fee may or may not be refundable, and membership may or may not come with any voting rights.  There are a great variety of membership systems, not all of us private club members are co-owners.  In particular, I'm pretty sure Donald Trump isn't asking or allowing the members at his clubs to become his business partners.  I may be wrong, but he doesn't seem the type.

[Dave2512]

My experience with private courses is members self police better than people do at public courses. Most don't want to be "that guy" whether it's being known for slow play or the guy that is an ass on the course. Just about every time I am at a private course the members point out "that guy". One thing I've noticed is people are less inclined to embarrass themselves playing the wrong tees at private courses. Because members are first name friendly and talk in the grill it tends to keep people from hacking through weeds all day chasing balls.

[ghalfaire]

I would disagree with that. At a private club you have a captive audience and, as long as you are serious about enforcement, they will be very aware of their speed of play. We inform the membership of the expectations all the time. The expected limit (4:15) is posted everywhere, including on the scorecards. At the halfway house, we list the foursomes by name with the expected arrival time so they know where they stand in the middle of their round. There are warning letters at the first offense and consequences when they exceed the limit multiple times (which almost never happens). Everybody takes it very seriously. In the end, we find that the pace of play is generally pretty good.

Not sure why that last post wouldn't get sent correctly.

I agree that economics play a part but not the entire reason.

Luckily we do have a 4 hr and 15 min requirement and it is enforced. Has not been a problem as long as I've been a member.

I guess I should have put some emphasis on the weekends as the normal rounds are in the 4 hour +/- few minutes almost all of the time during the week.  But on big weekends, Memorial day, Independence Day, etc.  there are a lot of people on the course and it isn't unusual for rounds to be longer than normal.  But since these "occasional" members pay too you just have to be patient or like me just go fishing instead of golfing.  This is a seasonal club (Summer) in a small mountain community about 200 miles and 6000 feet up from Phoenix and unless you're retired is a weekend trip for many of our members.

[jsgolfer]

I'll echo jsgolfer and phan52 regarding the pace of play.  At our club, and at every other private club I visit in this area, the pace of play is almost always good.  We definitely ARE a captive audience in a sense, but we also have a peer pressure component working to keep some of the slower players moving.  I think it must be a much more delicate situation to insist that a player at a daily-fee course speed up his play, when you need that same player to show up and pay his money next weekend too.   I've noticed a number of references to "equity" clubs.  I don't know the numbers, but a significant number of private club memberships are not equity based.  The initiation fee may or may not be refundable, and membership may or may not come with any voting rights.  There are a great variety of membership systems, not all of us private club members are co-owners.  In particular, I'm pretty sure Donald Trump isn't asking or allowing the members at his clubs to become his business partners.  I may be wrong, but he doesn't seem the type.

I'm with Dave on this as well, not sure there are that many equity clubs anymore. There may be some but when we were looking to join a CC, the were only two that I remember were equity clubs. And there were stipulations on those to get your money back. I know several private courses right now that have more minimal initiations right now. Fore Golf runs many courses around the Country, Club Corp is another. Their initiations are always low. National Golf Club in Ft. Washington MD has a $250 app fee and that is it. Loudoun CC is down to around 5k and Stoneleigh used to be 5k, not sure what it is now. Chantilly is $500 app fee and when we were looking I was a member at National and they would waive the initiation fee for me. If you look around there are nice CC that are trying to get Members and are lowering the fees so that they can get dues paying members.

[GolfLug]

For me, for now, it is economics and family circumstances only. I have dabbled with the idea for a while but always come to the conclusion that I will never join a private course unless I can play more than 3-4 rounds a month that I can now. We have fantastic deals (for example one of my beloved courses - no initiation, $150/month, only cart fees, none if you are walking). For now I just pay full boat anywhere from $40 to $90 and at worst break even, and play anywhere except for 3 or 4 equity golf courses.

Now this might change when my kids get to be old enough to play regularly. I think the economics might work out in favor and kids will have a 3-4 hour activity all summer everyday. Gosh, I look forward to those days!!

[DaveP043]

Now this might change when my kids get to be old enough to play regularly. I think the economics might work out in favor and kids will have a 3-4 hour activity all summer everyday. Gosh, I look forward to those days!!

It might even be a good investment, if your kids take to it.  I know a number of kids who grew up in the neighborhood surrounding our golf club who got golf scholarships in college.  Their parents were, and still are,  members, and the kids spent most days at the golf course playing and practicing.  It becomes a totally different subject, but I believe golf can provide a great chance for youngsters to learn interact with adults in a way that's totally different from their dealings with parents or schoolteachers.

[phan52]

Originally Posted by GolfLug

Now this might change when my kids get to be old enough to play regularly. I think the economics might work out in favor and kids will have a 3-4 hour activity all summer everyday. Gosh, I look forward to those days!!

Originally Posted by DaveP043

It might even be a good investment, if your kids take to it.  I know a number of kids who grew up in the neighborhood surrounding our golf club who got golf scholarships in college.  Their parents were, and still are,  members, and the kids spent most days at the golf course playing and practicing.  It becomes a totally different subject, but I believe golf can provide a great chance for youngsters to learn interact with adults in a way that's totally different from their dealings with parents or schoolteachers.

Yeah, a private club can be a great thing for kids. Our club has a very active Junior program. The kids get a lot of instruction and they learn a lot about etiquette and the basics of the game. They get rated by the golf staff to determine when they are equipped to go out on the golf course on their own. They have age appropriate club championships and team matches against other local clubs. I am very jealous of some of the places they get to play. They learn respect for others, how to interact with adults and lot of them end up as caddies as well. Some of them are brats but the good players I find to be very humble and thankful for what they have. One kid who has been caddying for me for a couple of years performed very well in states and is headed to college on a partial ride.

[GolfLug]

It might even be a good investment, if your kids take to it.  I know a number of kids who grew up in the neighborhood surrounding our golf club who got golf scholarships in college.  Their parents were, and still are,  members, and the kids spent most days at the golf course playing and practicing.  It becomes a totally different subject, but I believe golf can provide a great chance for youngsters to learn interact with adults in a way that's totally different from their dealings with parents or schoolteachers.

Now you are really describing my dreams .

They like kicking the ball around at the local First Tee courses. They are 6 (son) and 8 (daughter - in my avatar)  so a little too early for a serious investment, but it is definitely on my radar.

[meenman]

Fore Golf runs many courses around the Country

Actually Fore Golf is down to the 13 clubs they own, with the majority in Florida and the rest I believe being in the DC/Maryland/Virginia area along with one in Ohio. In Florida the prices are reasonable but have been told a bit higher in DC.

[atb5079]

Maybe this has been previously stated, but I think a big issue with the cost of private clubs is Gen Y-ers graduating college left with enormous debt. I am a perfect example. Love golf, 26yo, good paying job for my age. Yet I am left with wonderful Penn State student loan debt. If it wasn't for that, I would be a member at one of two or three local private golf clubs. Too many people my age are left with awful college debt and its getting worse. I can't justify $300/month for a club membership when I pay that in student loans as well. On top of that, i'm in PA where we all the private clubs courses close over the winter. That $300/month is really only good for about 9-10 months of golf.

I think what is great, is what some of the higher end public courses around me are doing. Two private clubs a few years ago due to the economy joined forces and turned semi-private. They haven't lost course quality at all. Now they offer young professionals memberships to attract people just like me. Golf needs to attract the younger crowd. This one course near me designed by PB Dye, beautiful course; called Iron Valley Golf Club - Lebanon, PA (look it up). Right now they are offering a deal $900 for the year. That gets "young professionals" unlimited weekday golf, cart included. Then unlimited weekend golf after 1pm. IMO, that is fantastic. This course is nicer than some private courses in my area and they also have a great restaurant and beautiful clubhouse. Another high end public course in the area is offering a deal for $400 which gets you unlimited golf with a cart anytime times for 2 months.

Its deals like this from the nicer public courses that I think can help draw the middle class, younger crowd. That way 20 years from now, assuming I am in a much better financial position, then maybe I am the one to put money into the place that was so good to me when I first got out of college. People don't have the time or money to pay $25k for initiation fees anymore. And the people that did at one time have that money are getting older and clubs need a new generation of members.

Just my 2 cents.

[jsgolfer]

Actually Fore Golf is down to the 13 clubs they own, with the majority in Florida and the rest I believe being in the DC/Maryland/Virginia area along with one in Ohio.

In Florida the prices are reasonable but have been told a bit higher in DC.

Club Corp has somewhere around 200 I believe.  Fore Golf is very limited in number and locations. National was very cheap.  I paid $250 app fee and less than $400/month with no minimums.