2013 BMW Championship Discussion Thread

[MEfree]

Tiger moved a stick, and in response his ball dropped. It clearly moved, but did not move back i.e. oscillate. This is a two stroke penalty. The Golf Channel reported that Tiger did not impose the penalty on himself, they showed him the film and assessed the penalty to him. He claimed he thought the ball oscillated.

Sheesh. I have lousy vision and could easily see the ball move (but not move back) in the video, and Tiger was right on top of his ball and he claims he thought it oscillated? Why am I skeptical? Oh well, I'll just have to put in the "metric" and tally this all up that way.

Had Tiger noticed the ball starting to move as he lifted the stick and put the stick back, would there still have been a penalty had the ball returned to its original position- aka would this be considered a non-penalized oscillation.  I ask because this happened to me the other day when I started to move a small pine cone that I did not think was touching my ball.  It was a casual round and I did not count a penalty because the ball returned to its original position.

[bplewis24]

Tiger moved a stick, and in response his ball dropped. It clearly moved, but did not move back i.e. oscillate. This is a two stroke penalty. The Golf Channel reported that Tiger did not impose the penalty on himself, they showed him the film and assessed the penalty to him. He claimed he thought the ball oscillated.

Sheesh. I have lousy vision and could easily see the ball move (but not move back) in the video, and Tiger was right on top of his ball and he claims he thought it oscillated? Why am I skeptical? Oh well, I'll just have to put in the "metric" and tally this all up that way.

Where is the video?  The link posted earlier in the thread doesn't show him remove the stick.

[newtogolf]

Where is the video?  The link posted earlier in the thread doesn't show him remove the stick.

I saw the video on the news, he pressed down on a stick and as he did you could clearly see the ball moved.  By move I mean, the logo on the ball started facing skyward (10:00) and ended up facing  the ground (7:00).  What I couldn't tell from the news video was whether the ball rolled a very short distance or just rotated in place.

[mvmac]

Here's some video.  The Golf Channel one clearly shows it moved.

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/golf-central-update-tiger-woods-penalized-091313/

[Beachcomber]

Seriously that is really a lame penalty. I don't know how anyone could claim that what he did improved his lie. While it may have 'moved' did it really 'move'? Wow. Edit: this is in response to the video Mvmac posted. I haven't watched any others.

[Zeph]

Nice 59 by Furyk!

And Tiger's ball clearly moved.

[mcfc_nick]

59 with a bogey is ridiculous!

And with Eldrick, i honestly feel he knew it had moved just by his reaction to slow down as soon as it did.

[Zwick]

It's the first 59 on the PGA Tour with a bogey.

Here a short summary of all 59s on the PGA Tour: http://www.golfchannel.com/news/jason-sobel/where-does-furyks-59-rank-among-the-rest/

Will Furyk be the first player to shoot 59 and not get a top5 finish? Hard to follow up such a round.

[Chilli Dipper]

Notice how someone accomplished a feat only five players have done in PGA Tour history, and maybe one of the best ten rounds ever, and we're all arguing about whether Tiger's ball moved. Jim Furyk deserves better.

[theworldengine]

Lol at that leading to a penalty. There should be a thread, "have you ever seen a pro break the rules, and get away with it?". I once saw on tv Fred couples ground his club in a sand trap before the shot lol.

[iacas]

Ball clearly moved.

Clearly a penalty.

And to those who say things like "well, it didn't move much, so that's a stupid penalty" I invite you to the obvious logic of trying to define exactly how much and in what situations a ball has to move in order to change the lie "enough" to warrant a penalty. Since you can't do that, the rules say "if the ball moves" and leave it at that.

Tiger's had a bad, bad year with the Rules of Golf. Which is disappointing, because it was one of the things I admired about him before - he seemed to know the Rules better than almost anyone else playing on the PGA Tour.

[David in FL]

Ball clearly moved.

Clearly a penalty.

And to those who say things like "well, it didn't move much, so that's a stupid penalty" I invite you to the obvious logic of trying to define exactly how much and in what situations a ball has to move in order to change the lie "enough" to warrant a penalty. Since you can't do that, the rules say "if the ball moves" and leave it at that.

Tiger's had a bad, bad year with the Rules of Golf. Which is disappointing, because it was one of the things I admired about him before - he seemed to know the Rules better than almost anyone else playing on the PGA Tour.

And after they've done that, they can put their talents to work defining the point at which a divot is no longer a divot.......

[boogielicious]

It is the classic, "argument of the beard" scenario.  So the rule is sound as it is otherwise the debate would be endless.

[Chipless]

What's most disturbing though is that he slowed down immediately after the ball moved.  He had to be looking right at the ball.  He had to know it moved.  And to not call the penalty on himself seems like of shitty.  Definitely not the same way a lot of other professionals would have handled it.

Karma is a funny thing.  If he had called the penalty on himself, he probably would have felt a lot better about things, then chipped it in on his next shot.

[Ernest Jones]

You guys are gonna catch some serious hell when Colin gets here. :-O

[Chris E]

59 with a bogey is ridiculous!

And with Eldrick, i honestly feel he knew it had moved just by his reaction to slow down as soon as it did.

Of course, he saw it move that is why he stopped messing with the stick. He tried to play cool and act like nothing happened, trying to get away with it.

[bplewis24]

I guess I've learned something today.  The line between oscillate and move isn't as easily recognized as I thought it was, especially when a ball isn't on solid ground, and it can "clearly move" without coming to rest in a different spot.

Saying the ball clearly moves doesn't mean a whole lot in this context, as a ball clearly moves even when it oscillates.  I can clearly see that if he would have removed the stick, the ball would have moved.  I can clearly see that when comparing frames, the logo is at rest in a different spot by a millimeter or whatever it is, which clearly illustrates that the ball rotated (aka "moved).  What I cannot confidently say is that I would have called a penalty on myself without clearly knowing that my ball came to rest in a different spot than it was before.  I wouldn't have the luxury of freeze frames out on the course.  I probably would have assumed the ball oscillated myself.

Don't get me wrong, last year in a tournament I started to move a stick from next to my ball, the ball moved (actually came to rest in a spot about a millimeter away from the original spot (on solid ground, hard pan), and I called a penalty on myself even when my playing partner said it was "okay, don't worry about it."  But if my ball wasn't on solid ground and touching the stick resulted in the logo rotating by a half millimeter but the ball not moving locations, I may have considered that an oscillation.

[Chris E]

I guess I've learned something today.  The line between oscillate and move isn't as easily recognized as I thought it was, especially when a ball isn't on solid ground, and it can "clearly move" without coming to rest in a different spot.

Saying the ball clearly moves doesn't mean a whole lot in this context, as a ball clearly moves even when it oscillates.  I can clearly see that if he would have removed the stick, the ball would have moved.  I can clearly see that when comparing frames, the logo is at rest in a different spot by a millimeter or whatever it is, which clearly illustrates that the ball rotated (aka "moved).  What I cannot confidently say is that I would have called a penalty on myself without clearly knowing that my ball came to rest in a different spot than it was before.  I wouldn't have the luxury of freeze frames out on the course.  I probably would have assumed the ball oscillated myself.

Don't get me wrong, last year in a tournament I started to move a stick from next to my ball, the ball moved (actually came to rest in a spot about a millimeter away from the original spot (on solid ground, hard pan), and I called a penalty on myself even when my playing partner said it was "okay, don't worry about it."  But if my ball wasn't on solid ground and touching the stick resulted in the logo rotating by a half millimeter but the ball not moving locations, I may have considered that an oscillation.

Oscillate means to move back and forth. That is not what happened.

If the ball rotates, it clearly moves to a different spot. He started moving the stick, saw the ball move (rotate), then he stopped moving the stick. When he stopped moving the stick the ball did not return or rotate in the opposite direction back to its original position,