Is Golf a Sport or a Game?

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Infamous 273

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Joe Louis played in a professional golf tournament (a PGA Tour event I believe but I could be wrong). He went through Monday qualifying then I think he made the cut as well. What did Matt Kuchar ever do in the tennis world? Did he play on his college team or something?

A good golfer can beat a great on on the right week. To get into the top 50 in any pro sport is another kind of good. Just sayin

interesting read:  http://www.pgatour.com/2009/r/10/26/kuchars.tennis/index.html

kuchar's dad was a tennis pro i believe, so the genes were in place.  as to whether he could have cracked the top 50 had he chosen tennis first, that is impossible to determine.  i'd say he would have had a better chance than most, however.

Yes that was an interesting read - thank you!

[bunkerputt]

If golf is not a sport, then this is not impressive:

I would not play worse when I'm tired.

My clubhead speed would never fluctuate.

Men and women would always play from the same tees.

All shafts would be the same flex, all heads equally forgiving.

Morning tee times wouldn't sell quickly.

Walk vs. Ride wouldn't exist.

And this guy:

beat this guy this weekend:

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

If golf is not a sport, then this is not impressive:

I would not play worse when I'm tired.

My clubhead speed would never fluctuate.

Men and women would always play from the same tees.

All shafts would be the same flex, all heads equally forgiving.

Morning tee times wouldn't sell quickly.

Walk vs. Ride wouldn't exist.

And this guy:

beat this guy this weekend:

Watching DJ trounce Darren Clarke in The Open Championship was awesome!! What the?!?

[tiger187126]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

(cut out pictures)

here are some other athletes in major sports:

MLB

NBA:

NFL

i don't want to put up certain photos of him because it's NSFW

but anyway, my point (now with pictures) is having a guy like daly in golf does not contribute to it being less of a sport because there are guys who are less than physical specimens in every sport.

[stoverny]

Quote:

Golf is, without a doubt, a sport. And professional golfers are, without a doubt, athletes. If they weren't, then why aren't more doing it for a living? If it didn't require athleticism, what is keeping the average Joe out there from investing some time & going out and excelling at it?

The answer is, because the average Joe is not an athlete. Pro golfers are.

I'm just not sure I agree with this.  There are a lot of variables as to why certain people become pro golfers and others don't.  Desire to be a pro golfer, for instance.  Money.  Time.  Parents who introduce them to the game at a young age.  Determination.  Hours and hours of practice perfecting the swing.

I am not saying that there is nothing athletic about a golf swing - I am simply saying that your statement doesn't really prove anything in my opinion.  There are a lot of guys playing casually who could perhaps had been pros with different choices/circumstances, none of which had to do with them being "athletic" enough.

Being a pro golfer is difficult, clearly.  But so is being a professional musician, or a professional chef, etc.  That doesn't make you an athlete.  It makes you the best at that particular endeavor.

[Kapanda]

People in this thread seem to mistake skill for athleticism. It's not easy to swing a golf club the way the pros do it, by any means. But neither does it require a lifetime of working out, hitting the gym, etc. It requires a lifetime of practicing the same skill over and over.

[Ernest Jones]

IMO, golf is definitely a sport but I still refer to it as "the game of golf" and always will.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Kapanda

People in this thread seem to mistake skill for athleticism. It's not easy to swing a golf club the way the pros do it, by any means. But neither does it require a lifetime of working out, hitting the gym, etc. It requires a lifetime of practicing the same skill over and over.

You've never defined "skill" or "athleticism" in a way that makes your point (you just throw out more words that you don't define), you just keep tossing those terms out there as if we all agree on their definition(s). There are plenty of examples of guys in other "sports" who didn't "require a lifetime of working out, hitting the gym, etc." and the truth of the matter is that the vast majority of the golfers on the PGA Tour "work out, hit the gym, etc.".

30 years ago maybe it wasn't a "sport." Today is different. One of the many things Tiger changed.

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

IMO, golf is definitely a sport but I still refer to it as "the game of golf" and always will.

Mike Tyson once referred to boxing as a game, as in "I love the game of boxing." It sounded funny when I heard it.

Robin Williams says "and how they could invent a sport like golf" in his hilarious little monologue.

[Kapanda]

Originally Posted by iacas

You've never defined "skill" or "athleticism" in a way that makes your point (you just throw out more words that you don't define), you just keep tossing those terms out there as if we all agree on their definition(s). There are plenty of examples of guys in other "sports" who didn't "require a lifetime of working out, hitting the gym, etc." and the truth of the matter is that the vast majority of the golfers on the PGA Tour "work out, hit the gym, etc.".

30 years ago maybe it wasn't a "sport." Today is different. One of the many things Tiger changed.

Mike Tyson once referred to boxing as a game, as in "I love the game of boxing." It sounded funny when I heard it.

Robin Williams says "and how they could invent a sport like golf" in his hilarious little monologue.

Because these are definitions I would expect people to understand naturally. I haven't defined the word "people" neither (by the way, well done on tracking that, I'm personally not sure what I have and have not defined here).

Athleticism: the amount of strength, flexibility, endurance, power contained in the individual's physiological make-up

Skill: the ability to perform a certain task with efficiency.

I still contend that Luke Donald has more athleticism than, but not much more than, the average person. But that's not the key makeup of his success. It's skill. On the other hand - ATTENTION: THE FOLLOWING PHRASE WILL BE USED ONLY AS AN EXAMPLE TO HIGHLIGHT A DIFFERENCE, IT SHOULD NOT BE UNDERSTOOD AS A POINT OF ARGUMENT IN ON ITSELF - if you've never hit the gym in your life, chances are you won't ever make money out of football or baseball. Do you see my point?

But of course, that is still subjective, which is why this argument has never been settled, though people have been having them for years.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Kapanda

Because these are definitions I would expect people to understand naturally. I haven't defined the word "people" neither (by the way, well done on tracking that, I'm personally not sure what I have and have not defined here).

Athleticism: the amount of strength, flexibility, endurance, power contained in the individual's physiological make-up

Skill: the ability to perform a certain task with efficiency.

Just as I said. You defined it by using a bunch of other words you don't define. Also as I said before - I think the golf swing at the highest levels requires strength, flexibility, endurance, and power . Hence, the golf swing makes use of a golfer's athleticism.

Originally Posted by Kapanda

If you've never hit the gym in your life, chances are you won't ever make money out of football or baseball. Do you see my point?

It's funny that you think you're making one.

Now you apparently define "a sport" as "requires a lot of gym work to play." So again, what do you think of the fact that virtually every PGA Tour player goes to the gym and works out? Including Luke Donald? Cuz guess what? If you've never been to the gym, you probably won't succeed in PGA Tour golf, either.

But that's okay. When someone says "athlete" you see a football safety or corner or linebacker, and anyone not meeting that picture doesn't qualify. A few long distance runners look absolutely gaunt, but they're still athletes participating in a sport, are they not? They don't fit your picture. I think you've got tunnel vision when it comes to what you think of when you hear the word "athlete." Which is fine, but it explains why you're really not able to back it up. It's a picture in your mind, nothing more, and when you try to put it into words you come up empty. Or you selectively say that a corner has "strength, flexibility, endurance, and power" but both deny that the PGA Tour player has those attributes as well and that the NFL punter might lack some of those as well.

[dsc123]

Isn't weight training for sports like football and baseball relatively new?  Did Jim Thorpe lift weights?  Babe Ruth?  Oh, Babe probably wasn't an athlete.

[Kapanda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Just as I said. You defined it by using a bunch of other words you don't define. Also as I said before - I think the golf swing at the highest levels requires strength, flexibility, endurance, and power . Hence, the golf swing makes use of a golfer's athleticism.

It's funny that you think you're making one.

Now you apparently define "a sport" as "requires a lot of gym work to play." So again, what do you think of the fact that virtually every PGA Tour player goes to the gym and works out? Including Luke Donald? Cuz guess what? If you've never been to the gym, you probably won't succeed in PGA Tour golf, either.

But that's okay. When someone says "athlete" you see a football safety or corner or linebacker, and anyone not meeting that picture doesn't qualify. A few long distance runners look absolutely gaunt, but they're still athletes participating in a sport, are they not? They don't fit your picture. I think you've got tunnel vision when it comes to what you think of when you hear the word "athlete." Which is fine, but it explains why you're really not able to back it up. It's a picture in your mind, nothing more, and when you try to put it into words you come up empty. Or you selectively say that a corner has "strength, flexibility, endurance, and power" but both deny that the PGA Tour player has those attributes as well and that the NFL punter might lack some of those as well.

You go for the witty remark right after failing to comprehend such a simple, ABC sort of comment?

I cannot believe that you are sincerely misunderstanding my statements so badly. There's no way. I haven't seen you do that anywhere else.

Why would you say this

Quote:

I think the golf swing at the highest levels requires strength, flexibility, endurance, and power . Hence, the golf swing makes use of a golfer's athleticism.

Right after reading my post that said this

Quote:

still contend that Luke Donald has more athleticism than, but not much more than, the average person.

?

How can you still say this

Quote:

Now you apparently define "a sport" as "requires a lot of gym work to play."

Right after I put an all-caps note

Quote:

ATTENTION: THE FOLLOWING PHRASE WILL BE USED ONLY AS AN EXAMPLE TO HIGHLIGHT A DIFFERENCE, IT SHOULD NOT BE UNDERSTOOD AS A POINT OF ARGUMENT IN ON ITSELF

Or do you just not understand the use of illustration when structuring an argument?

It seemed quite obvious to me when I wrote my post that it did not say that gym is required to be an athlete, but that the illustration used was to show how athletes condition themselves to a significantly higher physiological level. See how this is more wordy and not as materially clear? I decided to use an illustration instead to make the same point. Sometimes, illustrations are used that way in arguments, and it is perfectly acceptable. The illustration itself should not be understood as the main point of contention.

It's hard not to think that you're simply being blinded by your love for this game, that doesn't allow you to even acknowledge that there are reasonable points of view out there that contend against golf being a sport. No one here is saying "I am right, you are wrong", no one in the history of this debate has been able to defeat the other side. There are perfectly acceptable points of view going both ways.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Kapanda

It's hard not to think that you're simply being blinded by your love for this game, that doesn't allow you to even acknowledge that there are reasonable points of view out there that contend against golf being a sport. No one here is saying "I am right, you are wrong", no one in the history of this debate has been able to defeat the other side. There are perfectly acceptable points of view going both ways.

I'm not being blinded by my love of the sport. I acknowledge that you might not think it's a sport, but you continually fail to acknowledge that it can be. You did it just now, saying that I must be 'blinded by my love of the" sport. I haven't taken anything as "I'm right, you're wrong." I'm simply pointing out how weak your argument is.

[Deryck Griffith]

Originally Posted by MbolicGolf

Well does how fast one runner run during a race or what lane a runner choose during a race affect his competitors? Does drafting not affect the outcome of the race? in early heats runner bird dog races to save themselves for later heats, runners also push themselves to new personal or world records in effort to best their completion.

While there is no drafting in swimming, the fact that there are other people the pool affect how you swing your race. Whom you're swinging against will affect how you swing your race. Again there is a continuum but there are head-to-head contests in swimming and running.  Even if you take a singular activity such as high jump, the point is if someone jumps higher than you do he forces you to contest his or her jump.

If you're on the Tee Box and someone strokes a 350 drive you're not forced to blast a 351 drive in order to remain competitive. What someone else does physically does not compel you to beat him or her in the same manner in golf. Instead of driver wedge you can take 3i 7i.

In the case of running and swimming Vs. golfing there is a forced reaction on a participant that isn't as prevalent or is not there in golf. You can exert some measure of influence on the competitor’s physical performance in the former and not so much on the latter. Again it's a continuum but I think the that golf falls toward the game end of the continuum where as track and field falls toward the sport end because of the difference in physical exertion and the level of influence one has on their competitors.

I completely disagree.  There probably hasn't been anyone on the PGA Tour that has affected who's he playing against more than Tiger Woods.

When Tiger was at his best, the pressure he put on his competitors, from his actions on the course (making putts, hitting stiff shots, getting up and down from incredible positions when missing the Green, his score, etc.) was immense.

[Gresh24]

No other major sports have 17 year old (out of shape) kids and 55 year old men competing for the biggest tournaments.

[dsc123]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

No other major sports have 17 year old (out of shape) kids and 55 year old men competing for the biggest tournaments.

Haha!  Best point made so far!

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

No other major sports have 17 year old (out of shape) kids and 55 year old men competing for the biggest tournaments.

Tennis does (for the teenage bit), and baseball has had some pretty old pitchers (jamie moyer).

You'd be surprised what 5 hour energy can do.

[Precis1on]

Originally Posted by Gresh24

No other major sports have 17 year old (out of shape) kids and 55 year old men competing for the biggest tournaments.

How about curling, an Olympic sport in which pregnant women are competitors? :)

I'm not going to sift through 19 pages of comments, but golf requires immense physical and mental capabilities. It may not be as physically demanding in terms of athletics like runners and swimmers but I bet that it is certainly one of the most demanding mental sports out there and the pressure is immense. A lot of golf is, yes skill, but other sports require this as a baseline professionally as well. There's a balance there of athleticism and skill in any sport that you look at... but every sport demands both at some level.