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Phil McGleno

Strength and Depth of Field in Jack's Day and Tiger's Day

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  1. 1. Loosely Related Question (consider the thread topic-please dont just repeat the GOAT thread): Which is the more impressive feat?

    • Winning 20 majors in the 60s-80s.
      12
    • Winning 17 majors in the 90s-10s.
      139


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48 minutes ago, iacas said:

Oh brother.

I think it is hardly unreasonable and I don't see why that isn't more convincing to you.  And I agree with everything Wally Fairway said.

I just want to put something up that is relevant to the actual thread of field strength. Look how bad this stretch is for Tiger. It is why he doesn't have the career numbers. Not just the field strength. Jack never had stretch his bad on the regular tour And for fun I included Jack in his mid/late 50s when he overlapped some with Tiger up to his  hip surgery. Jack as an OLD MAN playing against modern players was better in the majors than Tiger has been since 2014. Jack made 12 of his last 15 cuts before hip surgery.  All I am saying. A little perspective.

Tiger              Jack(same age)     Jack (as an old man)

DNP                 7                                 CUT

DNP                T6                                T28

69                    1                                  CUT

CUT                 CUT                             CUT

T17                  4                                  T35

CUT                T9                                 CUT

CUT                 T2                                 T79

CUT                 T65                              T67

DNP                 T33                              T41

DNP                  1                                  T27

DNP                  T4                                T45

DNP                  1                                   CUT

DNP                  T2                                T39

DNP                  T6                                T52

DNP                  T23                               T60

DNP                  T4                                  CUT

T32                   T15                                T6

CUT                  2                                   T43

Edited by Fidelio

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@Fidelio, I notice you are conveniently forgetting about the injury Tiger had during that stretch of time. Specifically an injury that would be considered by most to be a career ender. That said, from the way Tiger has played recently his career appears to now be far from over.

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2 hours ago, iacas said:

Oh brother x 2.

I’d say more but my soccer game starts in a few minutes.

My "more" is here:

Back on topic…

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22 hours ago, Wally Fairway said:

Couple of things that are easy to state and support:

- Professional golf tour keeps getting deeper and deeper fields, both on the PGA tour and the European tour. Both tours have what are basically minor league tours that help develop players from around the world. As evidence of this the current OWGR lists over 900 players who have earned over 5 points, and glancing at the list almost all those players have played in over 30 events over the past 2 years.

- Tiger had the most dominant period that any golfer has ever had and Jack has had a longer career

 

12 hours ago, Fidelio said:

I think it is hardly unreasonable and I don't see why that isn't more convincing to you.  And I agree with everything Wally Fairway said.

 

Looks like I was wrong - so you agree that the fields are deeper and deeper than they used to be, that Tiger is the most dominant and Jack played longer.

Now we can move along to other big issues ..... like cold fusion & climate change

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Bumping this topic, because Lashley's win yesterday really underlines how deep the PGA Tour is now. You've had the following people win on the PGA Tour this year, along with their world rankings at the time:

  • Adam Long: 417
  • Keith Mitchell: 162
  • Corey Connors: 196
  • CT Pan: 113
  • Max Homa: 417
  • Sung Kang: 138
  • Nate Lashley: 353

The 300 rated golfer in the world in Jack's day was probably not a professional golfer. He certainly wasn't a tour player. He would have had zero chance to win a PGA Tour tournament. Hell, the 100th rated golfer in the world was probably barely making ends meet.

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20 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

The 300 rated golfer in the world in Jack's day was probably not a professional golfer. He certainly wasn't a tour player. He would have had zero chance to win a PGA Tour tournament. Hell, the 100th rated golfer in the world was probably barely making ends meet.

Just to get it out there...here’s what the Jack Boys will think:

That just shows you how much stronger Jack’s fields were. You’re right, the 300th ranked golfer would never have had a chance in Jack’s day. Much easier now.

That’s kinda how those type think.

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8 hours ago, DeadMan said:

Bumping this topic, because Lashley's win yesterday really underlines how deep the PGA Tour is now. You've had the following people win on the PGA Tour this year, along with their world rankings at the time:

  • Adam Long: 417
  • Keith Mitchell: 162
  • Corey Connors: 196
  • CT Pan: 113
  • Max Homa: 417
  • Sung Kang: 138
  • Nate Lashley: 353

The 300 rated golfer in the world in Jack's day was probably not a professional golfer. He certainly wasn't a tour player. He would have had zero chance to win a PGA Tour tournament. Hell, the 100th rated golfer in the world was probably barely making ends meet.

For that matter, maybe the web.com field is tougher than the pga fields in Jack's day.

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1 hour ago, No Mulligans said:

For that matter, maybe the web.com field is tougher than the pga fields in Jack's day.

It would be interesting if someone could compile numbers, broken down between domestic and international, showing the number of golfers engaged in substantially full-time tournament play over the time period from the end of ww2 to the current time.  Sadly, I doubt the data exists in accessible form.  But I know enough about golf history over that period and the demographic impact on international golf of ww2, that I believe the numbers and their pattern would be quite startling.

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Watching the 3M Open, you just wonder if an onslaught of young talent is going to multiple the field's strength and depth here in the next few years. These guys who were just amateurs a few weeks ago are already going low and competing with the regulars. Amazing to see, and this isn't counting Niemann who is 20 years old and could finish his 3rd straight week in the top-5. Not sure what to think of it and whether I like it or not. I've been a fan of a few elite players and guys trying to challenge those elite guys. We could be entering an era where there could be 15-20+ elite guys.

There was a big difference in the strength/depth from Tiger to Jack's day, and we could be starting to see a separation from the strength/depth of the field from today to Tiger's day setting up.

 

Edited by ChrisP

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13 minutes ago, ChrisP said:

whether I like it or not

Except this, I like your post.  Matters not whether or not you like it.  I'm excited about it myself, very inspiring.

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1 hour ago, ncates00 said:

Except this, I like your post.  Matters not whether or not you like it.  I'm excited about it myself, very inspiring.

I think he may mean it makes it less likely to have a ‘standout’ player to follow..someone to beat. If it gets to be wide open every time you’ll get a bunch of Danny Willet/Trevor Immelmann syndromes.

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1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

I think he may mean it makes it less likely to have a ‘standout’ player to follow..someone to beat. If it gets to be wide open every time you’ll get a bunch of Danny Willet/Trevor Immelmann syndromes.

Yeah, that could be true. However, I think we will always have some outliers and maybe some personalities for people to follow. Once Tiger has finally wrapped up his career, I think we probably will enter a season of wide open, boring but good play, at least until Cameron Champ-type guys (athletes) or guys with loud personalities start winning, before the game’s popularity starts to recover. 

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3 hours ago, ChrisP said:

Watching the 3M Open, you just wonder if an onslaught of young talent is going to multiple the field's strength and depth here in the next few years. These guys who were just amateurs a few weeks ago are already going low and competing with the regulars.

I don't wonder, and I think the odds of there being an "onslaught" are slim to none. We've not seen an exponential increase in the number of people playing golf, and even if we did… we're approaching 0 on the curve:

strengths.png

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2 hours ago, Vinsk said:

I think he may mean it makes it less likely to have a ‘standout’ player to follow..someone to beat. If it gets to be wide open every time you’ll get a bunch of Danny Willet/Trevor Immelmann syndromes.

Exactly what I meant. I think golf does best when there’s a dominant figure in the game. Just worried if we get to where 20 majors get played with 20 different winners. We’re in a good stage right now where we’ve had Koepka, Spieth and Rory winning multiple majors the last few years. Tiger obviously has his run at Jack going and it’s fun to watch. I don’t know what it might look like in 10 years if it’s too wide open.

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On 7/6/2019 at 7:21 PM, ncates00 said:

Yeah, that could be true. However, I think we will always have some outliers and maybe some personalities for people to follow. Once Tiger has finally wrapped up his career, I think we probably will enter a season of wide open, boring but good play, at least until Cameron Champ-type guys (athletes) or guys with loud personalities start winning, before the game’s popularity starts to recover. 

Didn't we already have a test period for that from 2008 to 2019?

There were 42 majors between Tigers 14th and 15th win, 26 were won by first time major winners and during that spell multiple majors were won by Harrington, Phil, Kaymer, Rory, Bubba, Spieth, and Koepka. 
Was this a period of wide open boring but good play?

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2 hours ago, Wally Fairway said:

Didn't we already have a test period for that from 2008 to 2019?

There were 42 majors between Tigers 14th and 15th win, 26 were won by first time major winners and during that spell multiple majors were won by Harrington, Phil, Kaymer, Rory, Bubba, Spieth, and Koepka. 
Was this a period of wide open boring but good play?

You’re assuming it’s only about majors. Nonetheless, Tiger was largely out of commission in regards to the majors. 

I guess it also depends on one’s definition of boring but good as well. 

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20 hours ago, ncates00 said:

You’re assuming it’s only about majors. Nonetheless, Tiger was largely out of commission in regards to the majors. 

I guess it also depends on one’s definition of boring but good as well. 

I'm not assuming anything, I just asked a question.
Personally I think golf will be fine - interest might drop for a while, but I expect there to be someone (or a core few) who will become the center of attention. Until they aren't and newer players take the limelight.
I don't think we will ever see an explosion of the game like we did - and it wasn't just Tiger coming onto the scene, the Golf Channel launched before his professional career and it extended the game, sponsorship across all sports have grown

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