Kate Upton upset, but misinformed, about country club policy

[boogielicious]

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2013-12/kate-upton-and-arnold-palmer

Yeah look at her form. If someone really doesn't golf why complain about this. Publicity wh*res are everywhere today. Complain to just complain.

What impressed me most about your post was that you looked at her form and not just her form.  I didn't really notice she was holding a golf club.

[rb72]

for chasm; some things you may not have considered (as is usually the case with the "political correctness uber allis" mindset): 1.yes it is discrimination. But it is discrimination based on a known behavior, not gender. You even acknowledge that "most women" play slower than "most men, while pointing out an exception that you have personal knowldge of. The problem with this is that is that if they were to rescind the policy they would not allow ONLY your freind to play on Saturday morning but would allow ALL women to play on Saturday morning and included in the set of ALL women would be MOST women and therefore the pace of play would in FACT slow down. So if a private wants to give a particular group of players a 5 hour window (out of 168 hours in the week) of opportunity where they can reasonably expect a brisker than normal pace of play....well....oooooohhhh the humanity!!! 2.You mention it would be fair if it were Tuesday for the women and Thursday for the men. I would dispute the equity of that arraingement for this reason (keep in mid we're talking about the country club set not typical working class people); There are MANY more women who don't work during the week than there are men, therefore your "fair" arrangement would exlude a much higher percentage of male members than female. In fact I would postulate that there is a fairly close percentage of men who don't work on Saturdays as there would be women that don't work on weekdays. 3. I do, however see some inequity in the arrangement as stated. Considering that the overwelming majority of the membership is likely male, the five hours they are alotted would still make it much harder for them to get their desired tee time and cause them to play on a much more crowded course than the (same percentage mind you) women would encounter on their alloted day. Yes you're right totally unfair and discriminitory...against the male membership, which is probably why the female members have expressed that they have no problem with the status quo. And I'm betting most of them would prefer liberal knee-jerk PC acivists like you STFU and mind your own business.

[Gunther]

Welcome aboard RB 72!

[dsc123]

First you have to explain what exactly about the policy is discriminatory.  As I said at the beginning, there are 5 hours a week reserved for men, and 5 hours a week reserved for women.

Easy--How many times have you played golf on a Tuesday morning?  How many times have you played on a Saturday morning?  Would you see losing Sat morning and gaining tue morning as a fair trade-off?

Its separate and unequal.  Women are excluded from a convenient and popular time so men can save 5 minutes on their round, and in exchange are given an inconvenient and unpopular time.  If it were men only wed mornings and women only tue mornings, that would be different.

Still, its a private club and everybody knows about it, no laws are broken, yada yada.  ( Kudos to everyone here for not letting this thread devolve into that! ) But it is discriminatory- -you're treating one group better than another based on gender.  Its reasonable for people to disagree with the policy.  Its also reasonable to think its ok, even if discriminatory.  It doesn't make you a bad person.

But the whole "calm down" and "relax" and "stop whining" response of some on here is dismissive and a poor excuse for debate.  Its not like people are storming the gates to protest these policies.   Dismissing them as overreacting simply because they took 5 minutes to write a response on here is simply a weak attempt to discredit the person.

But ultimately, what Zeph said:

Forgive me if it's already been covered, but what is it they gain from having specified hours for men and women?

[rb72]

Thank you

[rb72]

Dan, please read my post above. It apparently applies to you also. You also have a problem with a reasonable approach to an efficient distribution of tee times that everyone INVOLVED is happy with.

[Dave2512]

I haven't played Sat morning yet since I started golfing again in 2012. I doubt we can get concensus on this but this I know. At the club I was a member at not many female members were day job workers.

[dsc123]

Dan, please read my post above. It apparently applies to you also. You also have a problem with a reasonable approach to an efficient distribution of tee times that everyone INVOLVED is happy with.

Sorry, I quickly skimmed your post and saw things like "oh the humanity" and " liberal knee-jerk PC acivists like you STFU and mind your own business" and decided I wasn't likely be in interested in your opinion.  Your post directed at me, suggesting that I "have a problem with a reasonable approach" didn't convince me I was wrong.

I haven't played Sat morning yet since I started golfing again in 2012. I doubt we can get concensus on this but this I know. At the club I was a member at not many female members were day job workers.

Perhaps its a generalation/cutural/geographical/economic thing, because my personal experience is very different.  I can see how a woman who doesn't work would not mind the policy.  Completely.  That would change the calculus because you're really offering to equal things.  And if that's the vast majority of the members, it could be something that works for your current club membership.

I'm a 30 year old professional in a major metropolitan area.  I can think of a single friend, coworker, or relative of mine or my wife, who doesn't work (other than retired people).  Really.  Not 1.  We have young kids (twins turning 1 next month already!) and so do many of our friends and family, so I would think we're prime stay-at-home-mom range, too.  And I'd say upper middle class probably fits most of our friends/family.

[Golfingdad]

Easy--How many times have you played golf on a Tuesday morning?  How many times have you played on a Saturday morning?  Would you see losing Sat morning and gaining tue morning as a fair trade-off?

Its separate and unequal.  Women are excluded from a convenient and popular time so men can save 5 minutes on their round, and in exchange are given an inconvenient and unpopular time.  If it were men only wed mornings and women only tue mornings, that would be different.

Still, its a private club and everybody knows about it, no laws are broken, yada yada.  (Kudos to everyone here for not letting this thread devolve into that!)  But it is discriminatory--you're treating one group better than another based on gender.  Its reasonable for people to disagree with the policy.  Its also reasonable to think its ok, even if discriminatory.  It doesn't make you a bad person.

But the whole "calm down" and "relax" and "stop whining" response of some on here is dismissive and a poor excuse for debate.  Its not like people are storming the gates to protest these policies.   Dismissing them as overreacting simply because they took 5 minutes to write a response on here is simply a weak attempt to discredit the person.

The 'calm down' and 'relax' comments were probably a bit much, I agree, but they came because when I hear things like "women are given an inconvenient and unpopular time" it leads me to believe that people are forgetting that it's a country club with a small-ish amount of members and everybody is allowed to play all of the time the rest of the week. It's not like women are being relegated to only this tiny window on Tuesday mornings. That just happens to be the one time that men CAN'T play.  That's it.  So, yes, I play golf less often on Tuesday morning than I do on Saturday morning, but I play less golf on Saturday morning than I do on Saturday afternoon, Sunday morning, Sunday afternoon, before work Friday morning and Thursday afternoon.  See what I'm saying?

Secondly, when you say "would you see losing Saturday morning ..." it also makes me want to remind you that there are no people who had anything taken away from them.  They voluntarily joined a private club knowing the rules before they did.  So, if anything, you'd have to say that they "gave away" their Saturday mornings.

Lastly, and most importantly, I decided to ask my brother for more info since it's his club and not mine.  And ...

Bet that changes things a bit for some of you guys, eh??

[k-troop]

Its separate and unequal.  Women are excluded from a convenient and popular time so men can save 5 minutes on their round, and in exchange are given an inconvenient and unpopular time.  If it were men only wed mornings and women only tue mornings, that would be different.

Still, its a private club and everybody knows about it, no laws are broken, yada yada.  (Kudos to everyone here for not letting this thread devolve into that!)  But it is discriminatory--you're treating one group better than another based on gender.  Its reasonable for people to disagree with the policy.  Its also reasonable to think its ok, even if discriminatory.  It doesn't make you a bad person.

But the whole "calm down" and "relax" and "stop whining" response of some on here is dismissive and a poor excuse for debate.  Its not like people are storming the gates to protest these policies.   Dismissing them as overreacting simply because they took 5 minutes to write a response on here is simply a weak attempt to discredit the person.

This "debate" makes me think of some version of a "civil rights" lawsuit where the wanna-be plaintiff's attorney has to go looking for a plaintiff so that he can bring justice to the world. @dsc123 , who exactly are you standing up for?  What "wrong" are you trying to correct?

I might be interested if a single female member of a club who was active in golf and participated in the women's golf league actually complained about the unequal.  A bunch of dudes, most of whom don't belong to private clubs and don't vote on club issues, debating this issue seems pretty irrelevant.  Unless you think that women are inferior and can't stand up for themselves....

[dsc123]

I think we may have crossed posted there because my response to Dave conceded a lot of this. I think you're right that in a private club setting with a bunch of ladies of leisure who like to play golf on tuesday mornings, there's probably nothing wrong with it.  That's just not the world that I live in, so I approached the issue differently.

This "debate" makes me think of some version of a "civil rights" lawsuit where the wanna-be plaintiff's attorney has to go looking for a plaintiff so that he can bring justice to the world.  @dsc123, who exactly are you standing up for?  What "wrong" are you trying to correct?

I might be interested if a single female member of a club who was active in golf and participated in the women's golf league actually complained about the unequal.  A bunch of dudes, most of whom don't belong to private clubs and don't vote on club issues, debating this issue seems pretty irrelevant.  Unless you think that women are inferior and can't stand up for themselves....

You know, if you want to try to insult me because you disagree with me, that's fine.  I'm not invested in enough to respond and it reminds me too much of the day job that I come on here to get away from.

[rb72]

Dan, oh Dan. You failed to address the substance of any of my bullet points but instead focused on a few less than politically correct terms that I used, and you felt it necessary to tell me that reason can't convince you that you're wrong. I had already guessed as much.

[newtogolf]

This "debate" makes me think of some version of a "civil rights" lawsuit where the wanna-be plaintiff's attorney has to go looking for a plaintiff so that he can bring justice to the world.  @dsc123, who exactly are you standing up for?  What "wrong" are you trying to correct?

I might be interested if a single female member of a club who was active in golf and participated in the women's golf league actually complained about the unequal.  A bunch of dudes, most of whom don't belong to private clubs and don't vote on club issues, debating this issue seems pretty irrelevant.  Unless you think that women are inferior and can't stand up for themselves....

That is the problem with our country today, people feel the need to take up the fight for others who aren't complaining or feel in any way slighted.  The women in our club have no issue, if they did we'd likely accommodate them with a tee time when they request it.

We're talking about a private club that everyone has a voice in and men on this forum feel the need to point out how discriminatory the practice is against women.  This constant outrage every time it's mentioned that someone might be getting special consideration rings fake to me.   You can't make 100% of the people happy 100% of the time, that's life.

I'd like to play Tuesday mornings, but I accept that's a time set aside for the ladies, why aren't those running to the defense of the ladies pointing out the unfairness that men encounter on Tuesdays?  Don't bother answering, I already know the answer.

[Dave2512]

Perhaps its a generalation/cutural/geographical/economic thing, because my personal experience is very different.  I can see how a woman who doesn't work would not mind the policy.  Completely.  That would change the calculus because you're really offering to equal things.  And if that's the vast majority of the members, it could be something that works for your current club membership.

I'm a 30 year old professional in a major metropolitan area.  I can think of a single friend, coworker, or relative of mine or my wife, who doesn't work (other than retired people).  Really.  Not 1.  We have young kids (twins turning 1 next month already!) and so do many of our friends and family, so I would think we're prime stay-at-home-mom range, too.  And I'd say upper middle class probably fits most of our friends/family.

Have you ever been a member at a club? Most have a cap of 400-500 members and my experience is most are over 30, usually quite a bit over 30. While I don't doubt there are younger members that only have time to golf on weekends they would likely be the minority of the membership. It's really not worth it to join a club if you are so busy weekends would be your only time to golf. In the summer during tournament season weekend times are limited without being dedicated to certain member groups. For example every weekend in May there was a tournament at my parents club. Earliest time any members could get not playing in the event was after 2PM. The assessments alone is usually enough to discourage potential members that think they will play enough golf on the weekends to make it worthwhile. Along with your dues you will be paying for improvements to the property regardless of how much you are there. The club atmosphere is different than what we see at public courses, members will be out there during the week because they can afford to be. I'd be surprised if half the members at my parents club work at all. If you can afford the 1-2 million dollar houses along the course you probably aren't grinding it out at a desk.

[dsc123]

Dan, oh Dan. You failed to address the substance of any of my bullet points but instead focused on a few less than politically correct terms that I used, and you felt it necessary to tell me that reason can't convince you that you're wrong. I had already guessed as much.

I'll tell you man, I don't know you.  But I'm going up to Boston this afternoon for a weekend of golf with my buddies and I couldn't be more excited for that.  Something tells me that engaging with you further on a topic that I've pretty much already conceded isn't worthwhile.  Why don't we just look at more pictures of kate upton and call it a day?

On her frame, yes

That is the problem with our country today, people feel the need to take up the fight for others who aren't complaining or feel in any way slighted.

Probably true.  The list is something like this:

1. People using golf message boards to express unnecessary support for women's tee times.

2. The economy.

3. Ukraine.

I know, I know, I need to " relax " and "stop whining".  Again,

Have you ever been a member at a club? Most have a cap for 400-500 members and my experience is most are over 30, usually quite a bit over 30. While I don't doubt there are younger members that only have time to golf on weekends they would likely be the minority of the membership. It's really not worth it to join a club if you are so busy weekends would be your only time to golf. In the summer during tournament season weekend times are limited without being dedicated to certain member groups. For example every weekend in May there was a tournament at my parents club. Earliest time any members could get not playing in the event was after 2PM. The assessments alone is usually enough to discourage potential members that think they will play enough golf on the weekends to make it worthwhile. Along with your dues you will be paying for improvements to the property regardless of how much you are there. The club atmosphere is different than what we see at public courses, members will be out there during the week because they can afford to be. I'd be surprised if half the members at my parents club work at all. If you can afford the 1-2 million dollar houses along the course you probably aren't grinding it out at a desk.

Nope.  I've had a "membership" at a muni for a couple years now, but that's not the same.  Just a fee for unlimited golf that works out ok if I play more than 4 times a month.

[BallMarker]

They should allow a hottie, like Kate Upton, to play any time she wants.

[Ernest Jones]

They should allow a hottie, like Kate Upton, to play any time she wants.

Word. ;-)

[cipher]

Word. ;-)

There is not a high enough picture to word ratio in this thread.