"Lowest Score Wins" by Barzeski and Wedzik

[mvmac]

The reason I ask this, is that I have a hard time believing pros or most any other reasonably accomplished player is going to maintain what putting skills they have if they practice less.

Pros spend much more time on their long game than their putting.

[RH31]

Either. Absent a glaring weakness, work that ratio. Whether you get there by adding time or rearranging the time you have is up to you.

I almost never work on my putting… and it is one of the strengths of my game.

There have been a few really good players that I've played with over the years that I guess I never saw on the practice green.

I'm an inconsistent player with every club, so I need the reps with my putter. I've got to add a lot of range time to my agenda to get it near the 65% mark....

[iacas]

There have been a few really good players that I've played with over the years that I guess I never saw on the practice green.

Don't get me wrong… when I was a kid (15-18) I'd be at the country club day after day, dawn to dusk. When I couldn't get out on the course (tournament, closed to junior members, etc.) I'd be on the putting green.

The putting stroke is simple. It simply doesn't require a lot of practice once it's decent to good. It also has a fairly low ceiling - you simply can't practice so much you make every 6-foot putt, let alone every 8-footer, 15-footer, or 30-footer.

As you'll read (you picked up a copy of LSW IIRC?), putting doesn't have a lot of "Separation Value®".

I'm an inconsistent player with every club, so I need the reps with my putter. I've got to add a lot of range time to my agenda to get it near the 65% mark....

This thread may interest you: .

[phillyk]

I still have some issue with how the book lays out course management.

Lets say you are 270yds out from the green with water right in front of the green going out to 40yds from the green, so going for it isn't an option.  The green is medium firmness but rolls at a 13ish (so, fast).  The way I play it would be to get to the 100yd marker, or as close to it as possible.  I'd prefer NOT to be in the 50-65yd zone, which the book would say is better.

Let me first say is that I'm not talking about hitting the green (B/c I better hit the green!), I'm talking about getting as close to the pin as possible.  My reasoning is a couple things. I know how to hit a 100yd shot with several clubs with varying spins accurately in both direction and distance vs a 50yd shot which I'd only use one club and don't have many ways of spinning the ball because of how little swing it is from there.  50yds just isn't a comfortable distance for me.  Is this just something I have to get over, because it is easier to hit it closer from 50 than from 100 or are there multiple strategies because of the way the green is laid out?

You also see many pros laying up to further distances than you'd think, but it's because they know that distance better and can control spin.  I've seen pros walk back 50 yds down the fairway to drop their ball after a water hazard because they'd prefer a fuller swing.  Are they crazy too? I wouldn't think so.

[Zeph]

At +2.4 handicap, you may have a game good enough to make those judgments based on more conditions than the ones mentioned in the book. And if you are really comfortable at 100 yards, but haven't worked much on 50 yards and never feel good from that distance, laying up at 100 might be the better option for you in some situations.

The book tries to catch most players in most situations, and for most players, in most situations, getting closer is better. This is supported by data gathered by Erik and Dave, but as with any statistic, there are bound to be outliers.

PGA players can be going back 50 yards for many reasons, but I'd think they usually drop as close as possible. Again, outliers and individual situations doesn't tell much. You can look at the PGA stats and see that the pros hit it closer and hit more GIR the closer they are to the hole.

[Abu3baid]

I still have some issue with how the book lays out course management.

Lets say you are 270yds out from the green with water right in front of the green going out to 40yds from the green, so going for it isn't an option.  The green is medium firmness but rolls at a 13ish (so, fast).  The way I play it would be to get to the 100yd marker, or as close to it as possible.  I'd prefer NOT to be in the 50-65yd zone, which the book would say is better.

Let me first say is that I'm not talking about hitting the green (B/c I better hit the green!), I'm talking about getting as close to the pin as possible.  My reasoning is a couple things. I know how to hit a 100yd shot with several clubs with varying spins accurately in both direction and distance vs a 50yd shot which I'd only use one club and don't have many ways of spinning the ball because of how little swing it is from there.  50yds just isn't a comfortable distance for me.  Is this just something I have to get over, because it is easier to hit it closer from 50 than from 100 or are there multiple strategies because of the way the green is laid out?

You also see many pros laying up to further distances than you'd think, but it's because they know that distance better and can control spin.  I've seen pros walk back 50 yds down the fairway to drop their ball after a water hazard because they'd prefer a fuller swing.  Are they crazy too? I wouldn't think so.

For the sake of argument I'm going to accept the fact that you @phillyk are mor e comfortable at 100yds vs. 50yds and if given the option to take an approach from either spot you would choose the 100yds instead and I'm going to accept that it is true, and if you actually took 100 shots from each location on average you would be closer to the hole from 100 yds.

Having said that, it still doesn't justify the comment I have highlighted about your objection/issue with how the book lays out course management.  Specifically because statistical analysis was done with many groups of golfers, and the end result always showed significant data supporting that on average most people including pro golfers are much better at getting close to the pin when closer to the hole, and not at some random yardage perception the golfer has.  If you are going to disagree, I think you need to provide some statistical information to back up your reasoning, rather than just basing your opinion on what it is you like or perfer, and what you have seen a couple of pro golfers do.  Numbers speak louder than words, and your objection/issue is a non starter as it doesn't address nor have any "meat" behind it.

[phillyk]

For the sake of argument I'm going to accept the fact that you @phillyk are more comfortable at 100yds vs. 50yds and if given the option to take an approach from either spot you would choose the 100yds instead and I'm going to accept that it is true, and if you actually took 100 shots from each location on average you would be closer to the hole from 100 yds.

Having said that, it still doesn't justify the comment I have highlighted about your objection/issue with how the book lays out course management.  Specifically because statistical analysis was done with many groups of golfers, and the end result always showed significant data supporting that on average most people including pro golfers are much better at getting close to the pin when closer to the hole, and not at some random yardage perception the golfer has.  If you are going to disagree, I think you need to provide some statistical information to back up your reasoning, rather than just basing your opinion on what it is you like or perfer, and what you have seen a couple of pro golfers do.  Numbers speak louder than words, and your objection/issue is a non starter as it doesn't address nor have any "meat" behind it.

OK let me edit the green and see if you think the same.  It's still medium firmness and rolls at 13, but the pin is 5ft from the front where the water starts, and the green runs away from you past the pin (no backstop to help slow the ball down).  Would you rather be at that 50-60yd distance unsure you can stop the ball in time before it runs away, or will you move back to a distance where you can take a fuller swing and stop it right away if not come back every time?  And if you want proof of pros being further back than you think after a layup, watch last weeks tournament.

ps. I'm not trying to say I lay up to 100yds vs 50yds every time I play, because I don't at all.  I'm just asking about the situation mentioned above.

[Abu3baid]

OK let me edit the green and see if you think the same.  It's still medium firmness and rolls at 13, but the pin is 5ft from the front where the water starts, and the green runs away from you past the pin (no backstop to help slow the ball down).  Would you rather be at that 50-60yd distance unsure you can stop the ball in time before it runs away, or will you move back to a distance where you can take a fuller swing and stop it right away if not come back every time?  And if you want proof of pros being further back than you think after a layup, watch last weeks tournament.

Your argument still doesn't hold water when it comes to the bone you are picking with the book though.. The situation you just mentioned happens how often? Green rolling away towards water with pin 5ft from the front? So, you say building a strategy should be based on this exceptional circumstance that happens once every lunar eclipse during the year? I mentioned an important point that you didn't respond to in terms of the statistical analysis done with a large number of subjects who overwhelmingly performed better being closer to the green.. That says a lot doesn't it? have you ever thought that maybe I'd you worked on shots from 20, 30, 40, 50 yards you would be able to hit it closer to the pin on average than 100 yards? In average I think pros are what like 15 - 20 feet from the pin from 100 yards? I'm sure they are much closer than that at 50 or less.. Anyway, I'm not arguing about your experience since that is your own and might be true to you. I am just contending that your objection do any have a leg to stand up on because of the lack of empirical data.

[Golfingdad]

OK let me edit the green and see if you think the same.  It's still medium firmness and rolls at 13, but the pin is 5ft from the front where the water starts, and the green runs away from you past the pin (no backstop to help slow the ball down).  Would you rather be at that 50-60yd distance unsure you can stop the ball in time before it runs away, or will you move back to a distance where you can take a fuller swing and stop it right away if not come back every time?  And if you want proof of pros being further back than you think after a layup, watch last weeks tournament.

ps. I'm not trying to say I lay up to 100yds vs 50yds every time I play, because I don't at all.  I'm just asking about the situation mentioned above.

I agree with this.  A 50 yard pitch shot is hard to stop quickly, so when the pin is in the front of the green, there is no chance at all to get it close without doing something super risky.  Best case scenario is that you are landing a pitch a little past the pin and it's running out 10,15,20 or more feet, depending on the speed and slope of the green.  That is the best case.  If you're playing safe/smart, you're staying away from the pin and pitching it 10 feet (or more) past and then its running to 20, 25 or 30 feet past.  The worst case is you flub a pitch and dunk one in the water and you have to still hit the same shot +2.

If you're back farther and taking a full swing, the flub/chunk shot is less likely.  Further, you are taking a club to land 15-20 feet beyond the hole to avoid the water.  But with a wedge, it's not rolling anywhere, and might even back up some.

Sure, @phillyk (nor I) has any empirical data on this particular shot, and I wouldn't even be willing to bet that I'd necessarily average closer to the hole from farther.  But I would be willing to bet that I'd average fewer strokes from farther in this situation because I'm taking less penalties from farther away.

[Abu3baid]

Just for clarification I was never asking for empirical data on this made up scenario, that happens how often? I was asking for data to support the objection to how the book addresses the issue of laying up to a "comfortable" distance vs trying to get as close as possible. Everyone can come up with their own examples, but surely to object to statistical information a lot more is needed than a made up hypothetical and what a couple of pros did? That's all I was saying.

[billchao]

Chapter 25: The Longest Yard. You shade greens, too, on your Decision Maps, so you GamePlan based on that. So if you are faced with a situation where you're going to end up worse with a pitch than a longer shot, I think it's pretty clear you go for the longer shot. GamePlanning is about making the best decision out of [i ]your[/i] game.

[iacas]

Lets say you are 270yds out from the green with water right in front of the green going out to 40yds from the green, so going for it isn't an option.  The green is medium firmness but rolls at a 13ish (so, fast). The way I play it would be to get to the 100yd marker, or as close to it as possible.  I'd prefer NOT to be in the 50-65yd zone, which the book would say is better.

Generally speaking, it is better. From 100-125 yards, the median PGA Tour player averaged about 20' from the flag, and… missed the green nearly 25% of the time.

Let me first say is that I'm not talking about hitting the green (B/c I better hit the green!), I'm talking about getting as close to the pin as possible.  My reasoning is a couple things. I know how to hit a 100yd shot with several clubs with varying spins accurately in both direction and distance vs a 50yd shot which I'd only use one club and don't have many ways of spinning the ball because of how little swing it is from there.  50yds just isn't a comfortable distance for me.  Is this just something I have to get over, because it is easier to hit it closer from 50 than from 100 or are there multiple strategies because of the way the green is laid out?

If your Shot Zone from 50 yards is larger than your Shot Zone from 100 yards… then isn't the choice somewhat obvious?

Also, you're talking about a very infrequent, specific situation: super fast green (faster than they play on the PGA Tour week in and out), water, pin incredibly close to the water, green sloping away, etc. In such a case… you may be better off at 90 or 100 yards than at 50. Absolutely.

But… I would be willing to bet that, unless you've got some sort of mental block from 50 or so, you'd be surprised at your average scores and proximity. You probably aren't hitting it inside 20 feet very often from 100 yards, especially KNOWING that you can't come up SHORT at all. You'd probably average 25 feet or so, and you're missing the green 20% of the time or so. From 50 yards, you'll hit more greens and likely still average 25 feet or so. But since you're hitting the green more, it may still be the better choice.

You also see many pros laying up to further distances than you'd think, but it's because they know that distance better and can control spin.  I've seen pros walk back 50 yds down the fairway to drop their ball after a water hazard because they'd prefer a fuller swing.  Are they crazy too? I wouldn't think so.

You'd be surprised… Tour pros are not always the best strategists. NFL head coaches still haven't hired a math geek to stand beside them to tell them when to take time outs, when to go for it on fourth down, etc.

At +2.4 handicap, you may have a game good enough to make those judgments based on more conditions than the ones mentioned in the book. And if you are really comfortable at 100 yards, but haven't worked much on 50 yards and never feel good from that distance, laying up at 100 might be the better option for you in some situations.

Agreed.

The book tries to catch most players in most situations, and for most players, in most situations, getting closer is better. This is supported by data gathered by Erik and Dave, but as with any statistic, there are bound to be outliers.

Yessir.

Having said that, it still doesn't justify the comment I have highlighted about your objection/issue with how the book lays out course management.  Specifically because statistical analysis was done with many groups of golfers, and the end result always showed significant data supporting that on average most people including pro golfers are much better at getting close to the pin when closer to the hole, and not at some random yardage perception the golfer has.  If you are going to disagree, I think you need to provide some statistical information to back up your reasoning, rather than just basing your opinion on what it is you like or perfer, and what you have seen a couple of pro golfers do.  Numbers speak louder than words, and your objection/issue is a non starter as it doesn't address nor have any "meat" behind it.

Maybe @phillyk has a mental issue from 50 yards. Or maybe he just thinks he hits it better from 100 than from 50. Tough to say.

But there are times when laying back (i.e. to get more spin) makes sense.

We can't talk about everything in the book, though. But @phillyk , I think @Abu3baid is correct in pointing out that your bold text was off target. This is a very specific, odd case. 99% of the time, the course management we laid out in the book makes sense.

Chapter 25: The Longest Yard.

You shade greens, too, on your Decision Maps, so you GamePlan based on that.

So if you are faced with a situation where you're going to end up worse with a pitch than a longer shot, I think it's pretty clear you go for the longer shot. GamePlanning is about making the best decision out of your game.

Yeah, you can't just plan on the shot you face, but future shots too. Look at the example we made with the fairway and the tree… you aim halfway into the rough because the tree effectively shades the fairway to the left dark grey because you can't play toward the green from there.

[oregongolfguy]

Just got done reading the book. I thought it was excellent. I was a little worried about how much content would be new to me being a member of this site. But there was plenty of new information. Well written. I'm excited to get my game plan put together. I also liked the little blurb on tournament prep as I am planning on joining a men's club and playing in tournaments for the first time this year. There was alot of things that after I read it I thought it was obvious, yet I had not thought of it myself as of yet. Nice job. I am really excited about this golf season and I feel that this book is going to help my scoring alot.

[sk1dm4rk]

I bought 4 copies.  One for each of my typical tourney foursome members.

They just shipped yesterday, so I can't wait to get them.  Based on what I have read on this site, it is going to be a valuable read.

[iacas]

I bought 4 copies.  One for each of my typical tourney foursome members.

They just shipped yesterday, so I can't wait to get them.  Based on what I have read on this site, it is going to be a valuable read.

Great. BTW, they ship in two envelopes. So if you get a pack of two, the others are coming. Often they arrive the same day, but sometimes they get split up a bit. Both have their own tracking #.

[fr0sty]

Reading this book finally convinced me to schedule a series of winter lessons to work on my full swing mechanics. In previous years I had dedicated a large percentage of my (admittedly meager) practice time on partial wedge shots and putting but the combination of that book, the data from GameGolf and some radical honesty on my part convinced me of what I should have done years ago. I'm about half-way into rebuilding my full swing with the help of a good instructor and a Flightscope.

I bought a 10 pack of the books and have been handing them out to my golfing buddies. We'll see what sort of effect it has on them this next season.

[CarlSpackler]

Reading this book finally convinced me to schedule a series of winter lessons to work on my full swing mechanics. In previous years I had dedicated a large percentage of my (admittedly meager) practice time on partial wedge shots and putting but the combination of that book, the data from GameGolf and some radical honesty on my part convinced me of what I should have done years ago. I'm about half-way into rebuilding my full swing with the help of a good instructor and a Flightscope.

I bought a 10 pack of the books and have been handing them out to my golfing buddies. We'll see what sort of effect it has on them this next season.

That was nice of you, but might not have been the best idea.

j/k

[sk1dm4rk]

Great. BTW, they ship in two envelopes. So if you get a pack of two, the others are coming. Often they arrive the same day, but sometimes they get split up a bit. Both have their own tracking #.

Thank you for the update, sir.  Looks like at least one pack will be here on the 28th.  I've only received one tracking number thus far.

Regards,

Mark