Derek Jeter's Retirement

[saevel25]

He also has fewer wins then Curt Schilling.

If you compared him to a position like Outfield his offensive stats would not look as good, yes.  But he didn't play OF.  He played a much more demanding position.  OFers don't play SS because they can't.

Still, if you are going to compare hitting, compare him to all hitters, not just short stop. That is unfair to other positions. A hitter is a hitter, it doesn't matter on position.

Yeah, GG awards are kind of bs and voting is influenced by hitting.  But remember too that defensive WAR is not a reliable stat.  Do you think Mike Trout is a good outfielder?  Fangraphs says he has been well below average this year.  What about Andrew McCutchen?  His defensive WAR over the years:

0.4

-11.3

5.6

-6.5

9.3

-6.7

Defense is a skill that might gradually change, but it makes absolutely no sense to yo-yo like this.  I like the statistical revolution and frequent sites like fangraphs, subscribe to baseball prospectus and all that, but defensive war is almost meaningless.

Do you think his defensive skills vary that much year to year?

Remember, you value WAR as the ultimate stat, and that stat says that he is better than 216 hall of famers.

Sure it is reliable. The better Defensive Players are usually more consistent from year to year. Just because one player fluctuates doesn't mean it isn't a reliable stat. it might be in terms of drafting a team for fantasy baseball, but it still says something about that player. Look at Cal Ripken, his defensive WAR was never negative once, even when he was older.

Also, you are looking at Runs over Replacement, not WAR on those stats for Andrew McCutchen. His defensive WAR is -0.8, -0.6, 0.9, -0.2, 1.0, -0.7. Basically he's sightly less than average fielder.

I found the above to be a pretty strange comment.. I mean, why would anyone compare his hitting numbers against any other position other than the one he plays?  great hitting outfielders are a dime a dozen and that actually makes Jeter that much more valuable to his team.. With him at shortstop the Yankees were able to not worry about it in terms of both hitting and defense for all these years, and they can concentrate on all the other positions, while other teams having the never ending revolving door at SS!

The fact that he could functionally play shortstop and hit the way he did is just amazing..

In terms of value, yes hitting short stops are more valuable to a team. In terms of actual hitting ability and career numbers, why would you compare him to just his position? Isn't that a disservice to Jeter by not accurately placing him among all other hitters?

When people talk about Pujols, they compare him to all other great hitters of all time at any position. Why does Jeter playing short stop make it special that he should be compared just to short stops.

Actually they had to worry about defense because he wasn't that good of a defensive short stop.

[Gunther]

Lifelong Bosox fan - I've hated the Yanks since I gained sports awareness. Hated Jeter his 1st couple years. But over time, I've learned to respect and admire him. He plays the game like it was meant to be played, always hustling and damn, was he clutch. Crushed the Sox more than I care to remember and often with 2 strikes on him. Just a classy, classy gent with tremendous skills. Never went to his head. I think he fits very well in with those Yankee legends of yore and his statue will be well deserved and revered for the next hundred years. Now, are they making too big a deal of his farewell season? Abso fng lutely.

[Golfingdad]

When people talk about Pujols, they compare him to all other great hitters of all time at any position. Why does Jeter playing short stop make it special that he should be compared just to short stops.

But that's because he was a first baseman.  First basemen and outfielders (especially left) are generally "hitters" positions, so the best at those positions are going to be the best ever.  When you are a great hitter and play one of the harder positions (middle infield, catcher, even centerfield) then you earn that qualifier.

On the other hand, you are right that it is also worth noting in Jeters case that he wasn't a great SS, and thus, perhaps, didn't belong there.  If you believe he would have served his team better at first or left field, then you have a case to compare him to those guys.

[RJH999]

Unbiased View: Derek Jeter was a great player. He's also pretty overrated. I cosign Gunther.

[mmoan2]

Still, if you are going to compare hitting, compare him to all hitters, not just short stop. That is unfair to other positions. A hitter is a hitter, it doesn't matter on position.

Sure it is reliable. The better Defensive Players are usually more consistent from year to year. Just because one player fluctuates doesn't mean it isn't a reliable stat. it might be in terms of drafting a team for fantasy baseball, but it still says something about that player. Look at Cal Ripken, his defensive WAR was never negative once, even when he was older.

Also, you are looking at Runs over Replacement, not WAR on those stats for Andrew McCutchen. His defensive WAR is -0.8, -0.6, 0.9, -0.2, 1.0, -0.7. Basically he's sightly less than average fielder.

In terms of value, yes hitting short stops are more valuable to a team. In terms of actual hitting ability and career numbers, why would you compare him to just his position? Isn't that a disservice to Jeter by not accurately placing him among all other hitters?

When people talk about Pujols, they compare him to all other great hitters of all time at any position. Why does Jeter playing short stop make it special that he should be compared just to short stops.

Actually they had to worry about defense because he wasn't that good of a defensive short stop.

You don't compare him to other positions in terms of hitting because baseball is not beer league softball. Hitting is not even the premium requirement for a SS when scouts look at them. That's why there's far more Ozzie Smith, Omar Vizquel-type high average, low power number shortstops. If you can get a great fielder who hits for average and has speed, you figure you've got a great SS. Jeter was an absolutely monstrous hitter for a shortstop for that reason. Not just on the stat sheet, but his ability to hit to all fields really made him a tough out consistently. Add in a couple of 20+ homer, 100 RBI seasons with a career average over .300 and runs galore, he's a first-ballot Hall-of-Famer if their ever was one. Baseball, like any other sport, has different skill sets for different positions, and SS does not lend itself to favoring power hitters. You wouldn't have Karl Malone play point guard and then say "Gee, why are his rebounding numbers down and his turnovers so high?" Catcher, pitcher, and SS are the most unique positions on the diamond, and therefore, the most specialized.

As to his fielding, I'm a New Yorker and Yankee fan who was a baseball fanatic when Jeter came on the scene, and I can tell you that he was a much better fielder in the first half of his career, but he definitely did not deserve a few of those gold gloves. He always was a consistent SS, but his range was lacking, especially at the end. Anyone who has fielded probably 10 million ground balls will break down, though. How many other shortstops can you think of who even played for 20 years? He generally had a fielding percentage higher than league average, but was never known as a rangy SS, especially going up the middle. I think many people have made a big deal of his defensive liabilities recently because he is so revered that a crop of "lets poke holes in Jeter's game" guys came out of the woodwork. I've seen video reviews of his "flaws" and arguments for them. They are true, but most of the footage has been Jeter post-2004. For most of his career he was at least an average fielder. At first, he was above average. Especially in 96-98. He was actually excellent, then.

As to your Pujols comment, they compare him to all hitters because he plays a position where hitting is pretty much everything. Anyway, Pujols for the first 10 years was honestly one of the 5 best hitters EVER, whereas no one sane will argue Jeter was. Now, though, he's a DH who can't break .280. He's a shell of himself from STL.

Is the Jeter love-fest overboard? Probably. But Olbermann is still a douche canoe. There's ways to handle things, and then there's that...

[colin007]

as a SOX fan, derek jeter can go chew glass.

[mmoan2]

as a SOX fan, derek jeter can go chew glass.

If Jeter did that and swallowed it, he'd fine china!

[cipher]

[newtogolf]

Still, if you are going to compare hitting, compare him to all hitters, not just short stop. That is unfair to other positions. A hitter is a hitter, it doesn't matter on position.

The shortstop position was traditionally a position that focused on defense.  When I first started following baseball, the shortstop was usually an automatic out and batted 8th or 9th because they were the worst hitters on the team.

Guys like Jeter and ARod were aberrations when they came into the league.  A team that has a shortstop that hits for power and average provides their an team over most other teams.

For the purpose of records based on hitting you throw everyone into the same pot but in terms of fantasy baseball or GM'ing a team  you don't compare hitters to hitters, you compare hitters at a position to other hitters at that position.

[dsc123]

I can't believe I didn't know this existed.  http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/derek-jeter

[jamo]

Meh. Jeter's a great player. Overrated? Almost certainly. Is it a travesty that he was awarded FIVE ****ING GOLD GLOVES? Of course. Is this stupid ongoing retirement tour, well, stupid, and do I want to see this never happen again? Also yes. But he's a hall of famer and people like him and avbsdlvbshdflsjfkabvcz.oops sorry I just fell asleep on my keyboard. [quote name="Golfingdad" url="/t/77032/derek-jeters-retirement/0_30#post_1058443"] P.S.  Just watched the video ... Olbermann is a douchebag. [/quote] Maybe, but he knows his baseball. Who else is celebrating the anniversary of Merkle's Boner? [VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QVcGJwiO54[/VIDEO] [quote name="colin007" url="/t/77032/derek-jeters-retirement/0_30#post_1058538"]as a SOX fan, derek jeter can go chew glass. [/quote] Ugh. He'd shit it out the next day and they'd sell replicas in the team store.

[InTheRough]

I would have to agree with a lot on this. I was never really impressed with Jeter. I think he road on the coat tails of those great Yankees teams early in his career. If he played for any other team, he wouldn't be getting this much attention. I would say 80% of this attention is because he's a Yankee.

This (and Obermann's comments) are absolute nonsense.  Derek Jeter deserves 100% of the hype that he gets.  C'mon guys, he is the all time hits leader for the yankees and i think is number 6 on the all time hits list for all of baseball.  To put that into perspective,  think of a list of the top 10 baseball players of all time and i bet at least 5 or 6 of those will be yankees players and Jeter has more hits than any of them.  He has done all of this with a squeaky clean reputation during one of the tumultuous times in major league baseball and against pitchers juiced up on roids, not to mention all of those world series rings he has.  As a Phillies fan  have never personally rooted for him but to call him anything less than one of the greatest to ever play the game is just being sour.

[boogielicious]

Jeter has been a steady leader for the Yankees.  His early years he was excellent and a feared hitter and steady shortstop.  His later years, just steady.  I liken him to Carl Yazstremski.  Overall they both were players who represented the best side of baseball and never got into the tabloids or did off the field nonsense.

I hope he comes to Boston tomorrow so the Sox can give him a proper send off like they did Mariano.

[iacas]

I found the above to be a pretty strange comment.. I mean, why would anyone compare his hitting numbers against any other position other than the one he plays?  great hitting outfielders are a dime a dozen and that actually makes Jeter that much more valuable to his team.. With him at shortstop the Yankees were able to not worry about it in terms of both hitting and defense for all these years, and they can concentrate on all the other positions, while other teams having the never ending revolving door at SS!

The fact that he could functionally play shortstop and hit the way he did is just amazing..

Here's how I see it.

They should have put Jeter at a position better suited to his defensive skills.

They would have kept his bat in the lineup and had a player who could actually play defense.

First and third basemen are not in MLB because of their fielding. They're in there for their bats. The same is true of some extent to your outfielders (though they occasionally need an arm too).

The shortstop and second base positions are the two defensive positions atop the list (except maybe catching, for the obvious reasons). Putting Jeter there was perhaps a mistake.

It makes sense to compare him to all hitters because when he was at the plate, he was just a hitter. And in the field it makes sense to compare him to all fielders, because that's what's important then.

If Jeter could have NEVER played third, first, left, or right… then you probably have to stick him at short. But I doubt that was the case for 20 years - that NONE of those other positions would have been upgraded - by moving Jeter to them. Keeps his bat (pretty great but not the all-time best in any measure), and allows the Yankees to put a better fielding shortstop on the field.

Maybe it wasn't possible. Obviously they had A-Rod at third base for a bit, O'Neill at first for awhile, etc. Maybe he wouldn't have been an upgrade.

[saevel25]

Here's how I see it.

They should have put Jeter at a position better suited to his defensive skills.

They would have kept his bat in the lineup and had a player who could actually play defense.

First and third basemen are not in MLB because of their fielding. They're in there for their bats. The same is true of some extent to your outfielders (though they occasionally need an arm too).

The shortstop and second base positions are the two defensive positions atop the list (except maybe catching, for the obvious reasons). Putting Jeter there was perhaps a mistake.

I believe at one time they wanted to move A-Rod back to Short Stop. It would have made more sense to do so. A-Rod was a better defensive player than Jeter. I think A-Rod didn't want to play Short Stop and shot that down.

On that note, Jeter wasn't the greatest hitting short stop in the last 60 years. A-Rod was, half his career was playing Short Stop

[Abu3baid]

I believe at one time they wanted to move A-Rod back to Short Stop. It would have made more sense to do so. A-Rod was a better defensive player than Jeter. I think A-Rod didn't want to play Short Stop and shot that down.

On that note, Jeter wasn't the greatest hitting short stop in the last 60 years. A-Rod was, half his career was playing Short Stop

Yeah.. but I haven't heard of any reports involving Jeter in any PE drugs like I did A-Rod and others..

Really this fact alone makes his accomplishments as a hitter unbelievable..

I understand it might be hard for people to root for someone playing for the yankees, but the guy has been much better than just solid.. He is an iron man by all standards (without the drugs) and has been able to take advantage of the opportunities he has been given.. i.e. has the most hits ever in playoffs for example at 200 with the next closest person at 128 (bearnie williams) + all those world series rings to boot!

by the way I have never been a Jeter's fan either, (i..e lived all my life in Mass), but there are somethings that even I can't let my bias take over on and that is that Jeter is good and has ripped the sox on more occasions than I care to recount

[saevel25]

Yeah.. but I haven't heard of any reports involving Jeter in any PE drugs like I did A-Rod and others..

That has nothing to do with anything on this topic.  I just made the comment that A-Rod could have played Short Stop, which has nothing to do with PE Drugs.

Really this fact alone makes his accomplishments as a hitter unbelievable..

Really? Why is that, because you have to be on PED's to hit the ball? There are a ton of baseball players before the steroid era who were some great hitters. Look at Ted Williams, how about Pete Rose?

I understand it might be hard for people to root for someone playing for the yankees, but the guy has been much better than just solid.. He is an iron man by all standards (without the drugs) and has been able to take advantage of the opportunities he has been given.. i.e. has the most hits ever in playoffs for example at 200 with the next closest person at 128 (bearnie williams) + all those world series rings to boot!

Well it helps that he's been to the playoffs and Word Series so many times. That is kinda stupid stat really. If he played for a team like Seattle (look at Ichiro, who is also a hitting machine). He wouldn't have nearly the number of hits in the playoffs. So he was really lucky to play for the Yankees and be on those great teams.

[newtogolf]

I believe at one time they wanted to move A-Rod back to Short Stop. It would have made more sense to do so. A-Rod was a better defensive player than Jeter. I think A-Rod didn't want to play Short Stop and shot that down.

On that note, Jeter wasn't the greatest hitting short stop in the last 60 years. A-Rod was, half his career was playing Short Stop

My understanding was Jeter wasn't willing to switch to 3rd so ARod could play SS.  There was already some tension between the two, so the Yankees decided to not force the issue and moved ARod to 3rd.