Why are Women such Bad Instructors?

[mvmac]

Ok let's get back on topic, thanks.

[Ernest Jones]

Lol. I think everyone is too stunned to post anything after that.

[Phil McGleno]

What dont you agree with?-Have you worked with thousands of instructors and been an instructor yourself and thus are you in a position to evaluate what you think?-Or is your opinion based on far less information and experience than mine?[quote name="WUTiger" url="/t/78028/why-are-women-such-bad-instructors/18#post_1073960"]I don't agree with the OP's basic statement.[/quote] Dont know what those mean, and golf goes beyond a grasp of the basics.-Thats hardly high praise youre heaping on them, they 'grasp the basics'? Oooh boy let me sign up for that! [quote name="WUTiger" url="/t/78028/why-are-women-such-bad-instructors/18#post_1073960"]I have seen women teaching pros in action - one from a personal lesson, others teaching children, beginners,  or HS girls. And, I have seen two make presentations at golf expos. They seemed to have a grasp of the basics, and tended to be more relational and less mechanical in how they approached teaching the game.[/quote] That does not mean theyre good.-You know how much lousy instruction appears int he pages of the golf magazines?-Male or female? [quote name="WUTiger" url="/t/78028/why-are-women-such-bad-instructors/18#post_1073960"]If you look through recent issues of Golf Digest , women instructors are appearing more and more on the instruction pages.[/quote] - Gives a great golf lesson. There is my checklist.-If you wanna break it down farther go for it. What do YOU think is a good golf lesson? And what makes you qualified to judge? [quote name="WUTiger" url="/t/78028/why-are-women-such-bad-instructors/18#post_1073960"]From a human resources standpoint, I would like to see a checklist of competencies which the OP uses to rate good and bad golf instruction. His opening post is quite vague on this.[/quote] It could be. If 50/1000 are good to great, but only 5/1000 are women, though, then youd think one of those 50 would be a woman right? [quote name="WUTiger" url="/t/78028/why-are-women-such-bad-instructors/18#post_1073960"]I think, in part, it's a numbers game - just not that many of them. Also, most women pros who run instruction cells tend to do so in a limited geographic area. Most don't have the international "marketing reach" of Hank Haney, David Leadbetter and Butch Harmon. For every Annika Sorenstam, there's dozens of women pros who are famous in their county, but not much beyond.[/quote] Dont buy it-women dont seek out learning opportunities at the rates men do. Theyre open to them. Theyre not being denied entry. You pay your fee and pass tests and you can learn like everyone else. You participate on discussions online and you can learn like everyone else (free).-Women dont seem to care about learning. THey seem content to teach beginners and bogey golfers. [quote name="WUTiger" url="/t/78028/why-are-women-such-bad-instructors/18#post_1073960"]And, despite gains in recent years by women, golf is largely still a "boys club."  [/quote]

[iacas]

From a human resources standpoint, I would like to see a checklist of competencies which the OP uses to rate good and bad golf instruction. His opening post is quite vague on this.

Off the top of my head, when I consider what separates instructors from one another…

• Possesses great knowledge of the golf swing
  • Physics
  • Biomechanics
  • Anatomy
  • Geometry
  • Wealth of knowledge mapping feels to mechanics
  • Wealth of knowledge of drills
  • Continues to learn
• Prioritizes properly
  • Understands what will affect what else
  • Chooses the appropriate piece to work on first which will have the biggest affects
• Demonstrates well
  • Can demonstrate the drill, action, motion, shot, mechanics, etc.
  • Can hit most shots reasonably well, "cold," to demonstrate
  • Can play at a reasonably high level (or has in the past)
• Uses technology appropriately
  • High speed video
  • Pressure plates
  • Launch monitors
  • etc.
• Possesses great communication skills
  • Understands what to say and when to say it
  • Understands the emotions and psyche of the player before them
  • Can make the student understand all of the above
  • Is great at boiling down an ocean to a droplet (simplifying)

[Phil McGleno]

Right-So even if we pretend women can do all of that stuff(except purple-for better guys women in general cannot demonstrate how to hit a high soft 3-iron 210 yards or whatever), they often fall short in a few of them.-Namely they dont have the deep knowledge that some men do and whats worse is that they often dont even try to gain that knowledge. They seem content to teach their bogey golfers and women and kids and just give 'tip' style lessons. Boys like their toys and women dont seem to like toys as much,but it gives men an advantage because the 'toys' we use in golf instruction further our understanding and knowledge.-In my experience women do not go out of their way to continue learning.-Free, in educational seminars, or whatever. A few have in the past and I try to encourage them only to find out a year later they are behind the counter 90% of the time and when they go home they are not online learning more or discussing things with others. Women and men are wired differently.-Nothing wrong with that but this plus the sheer numbers are probably-IMO-why women arent good instructors-To answer my own question.[quote name="iacas" url="/t/78028/why-are-women-such-bad-instructors/36#post_1074108"] Off the top of my head, when I consider what separates instructors from one another… [LIST] [*] [COLOR=0000FF]Possesses great knowledge of the golf swing[/COLOR] [LIST] [*] Physics [*] Biomechanics [*] Anatomy [*] Geometry [*] Wealth of knowledge mapping feels to mechanics [*] Wealth of knowledge of drills [*] Continues to learn [/LIST] [*] [COLOR=008000]Prioritizes properly[/COLOR] [LIST] [*] Understands what will affect what else [*] Chooses the appropriate piece to work on first which will have the biggest affects [/LIST] [*] [COLOR=800080]Demonstrates well[/COLOR] [LIST] [*] Can demonstrate the drill, action, motion, shot, mechanics, etc. [*] Can hit most shots reasonably well, "cold," to demonstrate [*] Can play at a reasonably high level (or has in the past) [/LIST] [*] [COLOR=FF0000]Uses technology appropriately[/COLOR] [LIST] [*] High speed video [*] Pressure plates [*] Launch monitors [*] etc. [/LIST] [*] [COLOR=8B4513]Possesses great communication skills[/COLOR] [LIST] [*] Understands what to say and when to say it [*] Understands the emotions and psyche of the player before them [*] Can make the student understand all of the above [*] Is great at boiling down an ocean to a droplet (simplifying) [/LIST] [/LIST] [/quote]

[Golfingdad]

Namely they dont have the deep knowledge that some men do and whats worse is that they often dont even try to gain that knowledge. They seem content to teach their bogey golfers and women and kids and just give 'tip' style lessons.

I find this to be a little too vague and stereotypical for my tastes.  As we've learned from some of Erik and Mike's posts on this thread, isn't this true of 99.9% of all of the male instructors out there too? I have a hard time drawing the conclusion that the female instructors out there don't have a deep knowledge or try to gain a deep knowledge BECAUSE they are women. I would still contend that it's simply - as @boogielicious and @SavvySwede both said in posts 2 and 3 - a numbers game.

Why have I never met a good golfer from Greenland?  Is it because people from Greenland don't have the physical makeup to be good at golf, or is it because there aren't many people in Greenland interested in golf?

[MS256]

Right-So even if we pretend women can do all of that stuff(except purple-for better guys women in general cannot demonstrate how to hit a high soft 3-iron 210 yards or whatever), they often fall short in a few of them

I don't know anything about golf instruction but I'm a little surprised that you guys would consider that much of a factor. I'm not saying it's not but just surprised.

Could you not still be a good instructor if you had a serious injury that prevented you from hitting those shots?

It seems like that is considered more important in golf than any coaching I've ever been around in other sports.

(Like pitching coaches that wouldn't be able to get a ball to home plate but certainly know the mechanics of their pitchers).

[Phil McGleno]

DIdnt say it was because they were women, but if 99% of men exhibit this quality then I have yet to find a woman who does along with the other skills listed.-I never said it was BECAUSE they were women.[quote name="Golfingdad" url="/t/78028/why-are-women-such-bad-instructors/36#post_1074131"]I find this to be a little too vague and stereotypical for my tastes.  As we've learned from some of Erik and Mike's posts on this thread, isn't this true of 99.9% of all of the male instructors out there too? I have a hard time drawing the conclusion that the female instructors out there don't have a deep knowledge or try to gain a deep knowledge BECAUSE they are women.[/quote] The numbers game thing doesnt add up-If 50/1000 are good instructors and 10/1000 are female-And the numbers are bigger than that-Then one of those 50 should be a female. Im not going to respond to nit picking.-I am fairly certain there is something to be said for knowing what something feels like-in the past(there goes your injury thing? also progression of age/old age) or in the present. Most pitching coaches I know pitched at one point. They know what things feel like and oculd at one time pull things off.-Many in MLB or AAA still throw batting practice. [quote name="MS256" url="/t/78028/why-are-women-such-bad-instructors/36#post_1074135"]I don't know anything about golf instruction but I'm a little surprised that you guys would consider that much of a factor. I'm not saying it's not but just surprised. Could you not still be a good instructor if you had a serious injury that prevented you from hitting those shots? It seems like that is considered more important in golf than any coaching I've ever been around in other sports. (Like pitching coaches that wouldn't be able to get a ball to home plate but certainly know the mechanics of their pitchers). [/quote]

[Golfingdad]

DIdnt say it was because they were women, but if 99% of men exhibit this quality then I have yet to find a woman who does along with the other skills listed.-I never said it was BECAUSE they were women.

The numbers game thing doesnt add up-If 50/1000 are good instructors and 10/1000 are female-And the numbers are bigger than that-Then one of those 50 should be a female.

I'm confused.  If you're not saying that it's because they are women AND you're not buying that it's a numbers game, then what's left?

[Phil McGleno]

I am not saying they do that BECAUSE they are women but that most women dont seem to do those things. Thought that was pretty clear.[quote name="Golfingdad" url="/t/78028/why-are-women-such-bad-instructors/36#post_1074143"]I'm confused.  If you're not saying that it's because they are women AND you're not buying that it's a numbers game, then what's left? [/quote] If they do not do those things (keep learning;develope deeper knowledge) the next question is WHY NOT?

[Golfingdad]

I am not saying they do that BECAUSE they are women but that most women dont seem to do those things. Thought that was pretty clear.

If they do not do those things (keep learning;develope deeper knowledge) the next question is WHY NOT?

OK, fair enough.  I guess I'm just trying to jump to a conclusion on your behalf (which I know I shouldn't do) because I can't possibly see any reason why not.

[iacas]

OK, fair enough.  I guess I'm just trying to jump to a conclusion on your behalf (which I know I shouldn't do) because I can't possibly see any reason why not.

I mentioned this thread to my wife.

Her theory? Learning more than the basics would be a waste of time. Guys - especially lower handicap guys - are unlikely to take a lesson from a woman. Since there are also plenty of women and children, and they have low odds of needing to develop these refined skills, it makes little sense to try.

I think there's some logic to that. Yeah, it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation (i.e. A low-handicap male can't take lessons from a woman because there aren't many qualified, and there aren't many qualified because low-handicap males are generally not taking lessons from women), but it goes beyond that.

[Lastpick]

The pathway to becoming a teaching pro IMO is a long process with no immediate financial reward.  Perhaps women don't have the time or opportunity to play golf at a young age.  Where I live, we see the high school boys at the golf course, but rarely see the high school girls.  I don't ever recall seeing a group of high school girls playing golf.  Only see the girls playing with their family.  I have read that colleges can't fill the number of girls golf scholarships with qualified applicants.

[luchnia]

The pathway to becoming a teaching pro IMO is a long process with no immediate financial reward.  Perhaps women don't have the time or opportunity to play golf at a young age.  Where I live, we see the high school boys at the golf course, but rarely see the high school girls.  I don't ever recall seeing a group of high school girls playing golf.  Only see the girls playing with their family.  I have read that colleges can't fill the number of girls golf scholarships with qualified applicants.

After reading the first sentence the term "incentive" comes to mind.

Maybe a thought would be, why do men like golf more than women do? Many have learned the hard way that loving something with a passion does not always pay the bills - financial reward.

[GolfLug]

Off the top of my head, when I consider what separates instructors from one another…

Possesses great knowledge of the golf swing

Physics

Biomechanics

Anatomy

Geometry

Wealth of knowledge mapping feels to mechanics

Wealth of knowledge of drills

Continues to learn

Prioritizes properly

Understands what will affect what else

Chooses the appropriate piece to work on first which will have the biggest affects

Demonstrates well

Can demonstrate the drill, action, motion, shot, mechanics, etc.

Can hit most shots reasonably well, "cold," to demonstrate

Can play at a reasonably high level (or has in the past)

Uses technology appropriately

High speed video

Pressure plates

Launch monitors

etc.

Possesses great communication skills

Understands what to say and when to say it

Understands the emotions and psyche of the player before them

Can make the student understand all of the above

Is great at boiling down an ocean to a droplet (simplifying)

I would think most women who can play at a reasonably high level (one of the pre-requisites of being a high level instructor) are mostly playing on professional tours making butt load of money. Instruction just does not seem to be a primary path since it requires acquiring rest of the pre-requisties mentioned above in addition to playing ability.

It's simple: I think IMO it is because high level instruction is significantly HARDER than playing high level golf.

[turtleback]

OK, fair enough.  I guess I'm just trying to jump to a conclusion on your behalf (which I know I shouldn't do) because I can't possibly see any reason why not.

Well he did say that women are wired differently.

Which is not all that different from the comment another made that was jumped on in horror.

I say that they were both correct and that I am glad that I do not live in an androgynous world.

Viva la difference!

[WUTiger]

Dear Phil / "30+ years as a golf instructor"

I'm "42 years as a golf student."

Because you're allowed to initiate threads on Instruction and Playing Tips, I have to assume that TST has vetted you, and you have legitimate credentials. That said, I still take issue with some of your assertions.

What dont you agree with? - Have you worked with thousands of instructors and been an instructor yourself and thus are you in a position to evaluate what you think? - Or is your opinion based on far less information and experience than mine?

Your bolded response plays as an attempt to shout me down, because I don't have a PGA teaching card. I have quite a bit of golf experience, although I'm more accomplished as a caddie than a player. I've shot 77 twice in my life - yes, for 18 holes - but that was a long time ago.

I'm 64 years old, was a self-taught golfer for the first 10 years, and have been trying to recover ever since. The past few years I've had heart surgery and two abdominal surgeries, and a couple of sports-related leg injuries. I'm now about as well as I'm going to get, so my game improvement now relies on purposeful practice and conditioning workouts.

I have a fair amount of golf experience, and can play more the last few years, since my wife and I have a yearly membership at a nearby semi-private golf club. And, I have been a weeklong volunteer at three different national tournaments during the past five year. I took the basic GolfWorks clubfitting, assembly and repair course in 2012, and consider myself  knowledgeable on Callaway golf clubs from the past decade. On TST, most of my posts appear in Clubs, Grips, Shafts and Fitting forum, or in Golf Talk .

For my day job, I'm a management professor at a private college, and my International Management class uses the globalization of golf equipment manufacturing as a continuing topic during semester.

My wife plays golf, but is only 4-foot-9. We spent three months this spring trying to get her a set of golf clubs that fit. Finally, we went with the Adams Idea-Petite set, because both the irons and hybrids could be bent flat enough to allow her correct hand position at address. (Adams can bend most of its hybrids up to 3* flat because of the extra long hosels.)

Am I seriously involved in golf? Yes. Do I try to learn more about it (truth vs. myth)? Yes. Will I likely earn my PGA card and be your assistant instructor? No.

Between time in the military and a civilian job where I moved on occasion, I have lived in nine different states and visited several others. A quick review shows I have had lessons from about 16 different pros in 44 years.  Eight were single lessons - generally due to transient status - and eight others were multiple lessons.

Gives a great golf lesson is the overall goal, but you need more specific objectives to measure. iacas gave a solid checklist for rating overall instructors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Off the top of my head, when I consider what separates instructors from one another…

• Possesses great knowledge of the golf swing
  • Physics
  • Biomechanics
  • Anatomy
  • Geometry
  • Wealth of knowledge mapping feels to mechanics
  • Wealth of knowledge of drills
  • Continues to learn
• Prioritizes properly
  • Understands what will affect what else
  • Chooses the appropriate piece to work on first which will have the biggest affects
• Demonstrates well
  • Can demonstrate the drill, action, motion, shot, mechanics, etc.
  • Can hit most shots reasonably well, "cold," to demonstrate
  • Can play at a reasonably high level (or has in the past)
• Uses technology appropriately
  • High speed video
  • Pressure plates
  • Launch monitors
  • etc.
• Possesses great communication skills
  • Understands what to say and when to say it
  • Understands the emotions and psyche of the player before them
  • Can make the student understand all of the above
  • Is great at boiling down an ocean to a droplet (simplifying)

But, let's talk about individual lessons.

A good - or great, when they occur - lesson accomplishes the purpose of the meeting. In golf clinics, where the instructor deals with adult beginners or middle-school kids, the goal is to teach them the basics: Stance, alignment, chipping stroke leading into full swing. As a self-taught golfer at first, I know that transmitting these basics has major payoff in building a golfer.

Once I had survived a few lessons, I began eavesdropping on a potential instructor before taking a lesson from him or her. If the pro had a "here's how I play" approach - unable to accommodate the physical and athletic talent (or lack of) of the student, I would skip them. Also, if they had certain approaches to the basics which had failed me in the past, I would skip them.

The last couple of years, I have had a primary pro, plus lessons from others who had reputations for communicating various aspects of the game. I have found three pros that all have the same approach to the basics, and favor a more compact swing. All three, however, have given me different insights into the game that I didn't have before.

That's where I'm coming from. Your reaction, Phil?

[Phil McGleno]

42 years as a golf student and you are a 23.7 and once shot two 77s?-Exactly. Im not going to belittle your game-just say that you are probably not in a position to judge good golf instruction at a high level. You are probably somewhat capable of judging golf instruction for beginners and bogey golfers, and even then I've seen and given hundreds more instructors as you. [quote name="WUTiger" url="/t/78028/why-are-women-such-bad-instructors/36#post_1074508"]Dear Phil / "30+ years as a golf instructor" I'm "42 years as a golf student."[/quote] I think anyone can start a thread here.-My posts have probably vetted me. I do not post a lot- @mvmac and @iacas do a pretty good job-But when I do I think I have shown I Know what I am saying.-Maybe you havent seen them since you dont venture out of discussing equipment much [quote name="WUTiger" url="/t/78028/why-are-women-such-bad-instructors/36#post_1074508"] Because you're allowed to initiate threads on Instruction and Playing Tips, I have to assume that TST has vetted you, and you have legitimate credentials. That said, I still take issue with some of your assertions.[/quote] Not an attempt to shout you down-Just an attempt to explain why I feel I can have the opinion Ive shared here.-You are not in the same position to judge. Your quite a bit of golf experience is nearly worthless in this discussion, and you seem to care about credentials.-I did not see credentials anywhere on the list [S]Eric[/S]Erik made.-I'm skipping most of this-Not even sure what your point is. You have been a golfer for a long time? Congrats. Not sure about relevance on this conversation. [quote name="WUTiger" url="/t/78028/why-are-women-such-bad-instructors/36#post_1074508"]Your bolded response plays as an attempt to shout me down, because I don't have a PGA teaching card. I have quite a bit of golf experience, although I'm more accomplished as a caddie than a player. I've shot 77 twice in my life - yes, for 18 holes - but that was a long time ago.[/quote] Right-Why is this relevant? You really seem to think I was shouting you down but your answer doesnt shout you up at all.-And I wasnt shouting you down Just listing why I am qualified to say what I said. [quote name="WUTiger" url="/t/78028/why-are-women-such-bad-instructors/36#post_1074508"]My wife plays golf, but is only 4-foot-9.[/quote] What does this have to do with anything? I havent said that women cant teach beginners.-If the title of the thread is misleading you into thinking Im saying that I suppose I couldve chosen a better title, but women cannot in my experience teach higher level players or more complex things.-They are not complete instructors. [quote name="WUTiger" url="/t/78028/why-are-women-such-bad-instructors/36#post_1074508"]A good - or great, when they occur - lesson accomplishes the purpose of the meeting. In golf clinics, where the instructor deals with adult beginners or middle-school kids, the goal is to teach them the basics: Stance, alignment, chipping stroke leading into full swing. As a self-taught golfer at first, I know that transmitting these basics has major payoff in building a golfer.[/quote] Not sure what I have to react to.-You didnt really say anything. Do you have a specific point to make or a question? [quote name="WUTiger" url="/t/78028/why-are-women-such-bad-instructors/36#post_1074508"]That's where I'm coming from. Your reaction, Phil? [/quote]