Would you play a non-conforming (illegal) driver?

[joekelly]

Right.  Sport and law, etc, are human activities and are 'made up' according to various individuals and groups in power.

[Lihu]

Right.  Sport and law, etc, are human activities and are 'made up' according to various individuals and groups in power.

Right, so what if the group in power decides that they will allow currently non-conforming drivers into the market to increase the popularity of the game by making them conforming?

If there is a driver that would allow just about any reasonable swing to hit the ball 200 yards and better ones to hit the ball 250 yards and good ones 280+, I think it could entice many more people to play this game. Even if they still don't score that well, there is something very satisfying about hitting a small ball "out of the park".

[billchao]

Right, so what if the group in power decides that they will allow currently non-conforming drivers into the market to increase the popularity of the game by making them conforming?

If there is a driver that would allow just about any reasonable swing to hit the ball 200 yards and better ones to hit the ball 250 yards and good ones 280+, I think it could entice many more people to play this game. Even if they still don't score that well, there is something very satisfying about hitting a small ball "out of the park".

Then of course the pros would all play it, Bubba would average 400 yards, and golf courses would need to be 8,500 yards, leading to all sorts of environmental issues and classic golf courses getting ruined by being lengthened, etc. Tradition matters in golf. The game has a lot of history and equipment limitations are one of the ways they can preserve the game.

[jamo]

No, I wouldn't. I don't want to give up the ability to compare my rounds to other rounds.

[brice]

I'm surprised more people aren't saying yes. I mean most non-pros don't play with regulation size footballs or wooden baseball bats, why's this any different?

[onkey]

Nope.  If I wanted to play the game with non-conforming equipment, why not take it a step further and shoot the ball from a gun? or a cannon? putt with a pool cue?

[brice]

Nope.  If I wanted to play the game with non-conforming equipment, why not take it a step further and shoot the ball from a gun? or a cannon? putt with a pool cue?

I've done the last one lol

[mvmac]

BTW one-quarter of the votes on the Golf Digest poll earlier in the year were "Yes" votes.

You would think so, wouldn't you.  Yet there is company out there peddling non-conforming balls and it is not as clear as we might think, considering those very balls have been recommended on this very site by users who did not realize they are illegal.  I am talking, of course about Polara golf balls.  Polara also sells a non-conforming driver but at least their website is up front about it being illegal.  They are much less up front about the balls.  You can find the info that they are not USGA legal on their site, but you have to dig a bit.

I was referring more to major OEM's like TaylorMade, Callaway, Titleist, etc.

I'm surprised more people aren't saying yes. I mean most non-pros don't play with regulation size footballs or wooden baseball bats, why's this any different?

It's not really pros vs amateurs, it's more about playing by the rules of golf according to the USGA. Some golfers want to keep a handicap and some golfers couldn't care less about the USGA.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Right, so what if the group in power decides that they will allow currently non-conforming drivers into the market to increase the popularity of the game by making them conforming?

If there is a driver that would allow just about any reasonable swing to hit the ball 200 yards and better ones to hit the ball 250 yards and good ones 280+, I think it could entice many more people to play this game. Even if they still don't score that well, there is something very satisfying about hitting a small ball "out of the park".

Then of course the pros would all play it, Bubba would average 400 yards, and golf courses would need to be 8,500 yards, leading to all sorts of environmental issues and classic golf courses getting ruined by being lengthened, etc. Tradition matters in golf. The game has a lot of history and equipment limitations are one of the ways they can preserve the game.

Guessing Bubba and all the other pros are at the limit of 0.83 under the test conditions set by USGA, and possibly higher under certain playing conditions? The highest possible achievable COR might be something like 0.95? So, the extra estimated ball speed is about 0.95/0.83 or 14.5% more assuming they can build a club this efficiently at his swing speeds. This means that Bubba's current average of 311 yards could be as high as 355 yards (more than likely not). This might impact his club choice so as not to overdrive doglegs and other such hazards. After all, length does not help in all circumstances. So, he could elect use another club off the tee like his 3W or hybrid?

So, the amount of additional distance does not seem that outrageous for the pros who are possibly at or higher than the current COR limits under some playing conditions?

The other aspect is that at higher swing speeds the efficiency might not be as high? For example, at 80mph you might be able to achieve a COR of 0.94 while at 120mph you might only be able to get 0.88? So, in this sense, it might not be fair to long hitters, but I'm sure someone already did some models and prototypes of high COR drivers? It would be interesting to see the complete studies if they have already been done. I am using an example from the "worlds hottest drivers" website on driver face thinning, as an example of how it might be done?

OTOH, if it is done with other technologies that will allow a high speed swinger hit farther too, then we are back to the high COR for everyone model.

In either case, if the clubs do into everyone's bag, the probable maximum increase is something like 14.5% in ball speed? If they use non-conforming balls too maybe another 5-10% (10% is their "claim"). This means that the average hitter can now hit 259 yards rather than 208? The average scratch to 5HC could now hit 299 yards instead of 240 yards?

So, with "bandit" type balls and high COR drivers the most the amateur can hit is about 24.5% more distance and realistically maybe 10%-15%? That doesn't really seem like something that would put golf courses out of business overnight and require 8500 yard golf courses for pros?

[billchao]

That doesn't really seem like something that would put golf courses out of business overnight and require 8500 yard golf courses for pros?

Sorry, forgot I was talking to an engineer.

I made those numbers up to make a point, but better technology leading to pros hitting the ball longer is actually a real issue. Here's an example, it's OT, so it's going in a spoiler:

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-augusta-national-has-changed-2013-4

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/2008-06/gw19970418rosaforte

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

That doesn't really seem like something that would put golf courses out of business overnight and require 8500 yard golf courses for pros?

Sorry, forgot I was talking to an engineer.

I made those numbers up to make a point, but better technology leading to pros hitting the ball longer is actually a real issue. Here's an example, it's OT, so it's going in a spoiler:

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-augusta-national-has-changed-2013-4

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/2008-06/gw19970418rosaforte

That's only because I had my "stupid monkey" hat on to learn how to swing better.

I'll take a read at the articles you posted. . .

[newtogolf]

I'm surprised more people aren't saying yes. I mean most non-pros don't play with regulation size footballs or wooden baseball bats, why's this any different?

If you don't play competitively or maintain a handicap there's no reason not to experiment with non-conforming clubs.  Non-pro's that play football and baseball aren't relating their stats and performance back to the pro's.  They also aren't playing in the same professional stadiums but as a golfer you can play most of the courses (different setup) the pro's do.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by brice

I'm surprised more people aren't saying yes. I mean most non-pros don't play with regulation size footballs or wooden baseball bats, why's this any different?

If you don't play competitively or maintain a handicap there's no reason not to experiment with non-conforming clubs.  Non-pro's that play football and baseball aren't relating their stats and performance back to the pro's.  They also aren't playing in the same professional stadiums but as a golfer you can play most of the courses (different setup) the pro's do.

Many of the big 10 universities have professional level football fields and almost professional level stadiums (like the Rose Bowl), even some high schools have the fields.

[Golfingdad]

Many of the big 10 universities have professional level football fields and almost professional level stadiums (like the Rose Bowl), even some high schools have the fields.

They all play competitively. Methinks if you were into golf a decade ago when we went thru everything Bill is talking about then you'd understand it better.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Many of the big 10 universities have professional level football fields and almost professional level stadiums (like the Rose Bowl), even some high schools have the fields.

They all play competitively.

Methinks if you were into golf a decade ago when we went thru everything Bill is talking about then you'd understand it better.

Yeah, I seem to be missing a critical chunk of history here.

I should review all the articles written in that time frame.

[turtleback]

Many of the big 10 universities have professional level football fields and almost professional level stadiums (like the Rose Bowl), even some high schools have the fields.

What does that have to do with typical amateur golfers?

Yeah, I seem to be missing a critical chunk of history here.

I should review all the articles written in that time frame.

Here is the thing.  Do you want to play better or do you just want to write a lower score down?  Because a non-conforming club will only do one of these.  If you hit it 15 yards further with a non-conforming club it isn't because you played better.  Why would doing the exact same thing but getting a better result - because of something you bought not something you did -  give any satisfaction?  I just do not get this mindset.

[newtogolf]

Here is the thing.  Do you want to play better or do you just want to write a lower score down?  Because a non-conforming club will only do one of these.  If you hit it 15 yards further with a non-conforming club it isn't because you played better.  Why would doing the exact same thing but getting a better result - because of something you bought not something you did -  give any satisfaction?  I just do not get this mindset.

What attracts me to golf is I can measure my performance against others and against the course.  Playing by the rules and using conforming equipment is what keeps everyone on an even level for comparison via the handicap system.

Using a non-conforming driver during competition would be like using deflated footballs in the NFL.

[14ledo81]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Yeah, I seem to be missing a critical chunk of history here.

I should review all the articles written in that time frame.

Here is the thing.  Do you want to play better or do you just want to write a lower score down?  Because a non-conforming club will only do one of these.  If you hit it 15 yards further with a non-conforming club it isn't because you played better.  Why would doing the exact same thing but getting a better result - because of something you bought not something you did -  give any satisfaction?  I just do not get this mindset.

Why do people look for the longest driver they can get that is still within the rules?