lost ball and dropping a ball question

[dfreuter415]

We have a local rule about footprints in an unraked sand trap. Lift out of the foot print. I got that rule in place.

I'm trying to get instituted a rule for unfilled divots. Play them as ground under repair.

I like the way you think. Golf is difficult enough. When encountering conditions like unraked traps or non-replaced divots, under normal play, you shouldn't be penalized for the actions of others. (I might argue that for tournaments you have to go with "the rub of the green.")

[David in FL]

I'm trying to get instituted a rule for unfilled divots. Play them as ground under repair. During the current Big Break, one of the golfers mentioned making a divot he could bury a dead cat in. I've been in a few of those. That "rub of the green" rubs me the wrong way. I always tell my opponents to lift it out of those craters. You don't need to be penalized like that after spriping a ball down the middle of the fairway.

By the same reasoning, I assume that when your buddy busts one dead right into the trees, but it catches a branch that kicks it out into the fairway, you insist that he toss it back into the woods, right?  Clearly a bad shot shouldn't be rewarded if a good shot shouldn't be penalized......

[dkolo]

If you can't find your first ball and your provisional, can you take 5 minutes for each? I would assume not, but the rules of golf are wacky sometimes and open to interpretation.

My handicap is established in a league where we do have a local rule covering lost balls in areas where they shouldn't be lost. If lost in the fairway, free drop where player and opponent agree the ball should be. Same for open rough where there is no chance the ball would normally be lost. Most of the golfers in my league are +20 handicaps with many at 36+. It takes 2 1/2 hours for 9 holes as it is, so 5 minutes per lost ball and provisionals would probably result in 3+ hours for 9 hole rounds.

We have a local rule about footprints in an unraked sand trap. Lift out of the foot print. I got that rule in place.

I'm trying to get instituted a rule for unfilled divots. Play them as ground under repair. During the current Big Break, one of the golfers mentioned making a divot he could bury a dead cat in. I've been in a few of those. That "rub of the green" rubs me the wrong way. I always tell my opponents to lift it out of those craters. You don't need to be penalized like that after spriping a ball down the middle of the fairway. They pros all have nicely filled divots. Why should we play tougher conditions than the pros? Jack tried to get filled divots declared as ground under repair. I agree. That's why they say "repair your divots".

I'm not a rules expert by any means, but those local rules don't sound like they should be permissible under the actual rules. At least the one about lost balls. There's a local rule at one course near me, I posted about it in the rules section actually, where they have a local rule that offers a free drop for a safety out of bounds. The advice I was given was that if the local rule conflicts with the official rules, you can't use a score from a round invoking it for handicap. I've never hit into that area, but if I did, I'd just hit a provisional and play it out as a regular OB.

I like the way you think. Golf is difficult enough. When encountering conditions like unraked traps or non-replaced divots, under normal play, you shouldn't be penalized for the actions of others.  (I might argue that for tournaments you have to go with "the rub of the green.")

There's literally about a half dozen threads here about treating divots as GUR, and without rehashing it here, I strongly disagree with this idea.

Quote:

That was exactly what I meant. When guys are going to lose two strokes for a lost ball, the guys I play with WILL look longer because of the extra stroke.

And, if you are going to lose two strokes, I would rather go back to the tee, because, in most cases, the shot that is lost is either in deep rough or a wooded area. And if you have already looked 5 minutes and then walk back to the tee, you tend to back up the course.

I'd argue that they'd just be more mindful of hitting provisionals. Your current rule / method discourages their use because you save a stroke

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

How on earth could it slow play?  You aren't doing anything different except adding an additional stroke to your card.  It's not like you have to actually make a swing for each penalty stroke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkolo

I think he means it'll lead to longer search times because of the stiffer penalty, which, I dunno, maybe. It's not an argument I'm moved by.

That was exactly what I meant. When guys are going to lose two strokes for a lost ball, the guys I play with WILL look longer because of the extra stroke.

And, if you are going to lose two strokes, I would rather go back to the tee, because, in most cases, the shot that is lost is either in deep rough or a wooded area. And if you have already looked 5 minutes and then walk back to the tee, you tend to back up the course.

By that logic then you would never play a provisional ball either (since it would effectively result in a 2 stroke penalty if you have to use it), so why even bother to ask about the rules?  Some people will invent anything they can think of to avoid having to play by the rules of golf.  I have had countless times when I had to continue play with my provisional ball, yet I've never taken longer on a search because of it.  The idea never even crossed my mind.

Not to mention that the the score recorded by dropping the stroke is meaningless anyway.  It's no different than ignoring a penalty stroke in any other situation.  Drop out of a water hazard?  No penalty.  Accidentally kick your ball?  Just put it back and forget the penalty.  Got a little dirt on the ball in the fairway?  Just clean it off.  There really isn't any difference in what penalties you choose to ignore.

Just for the record, I will play a provisional ball if I feel that there is any chance of my original ball not being found or being found OB.  However, on a full course in a casual round if I get to where my ball should be and for whatever reason I can't find it, I don't return to the tee and slow down play.  I do take 2 strokes to approximate what I would have been penalized, and since that will usually result in reaching my ESC score for handicap posting, the final hole score is really only relevant if we have a wager going within the group.  I will usually only be posting the ESC adjusted score.

Not taking the heavier penalty would just be lying to myself, and I always catch myself at it when I do that.

[Shindig]

Quote: That was exactly what I meant. When guys are going to lose two strokes for a lost ball, the guys I play with WILL look longer because of the extra stroke. And, if you are going to lose two strokes, I would rather go back to the tee, because, in most cases, the shot that is lost is either in deep rough or a wooded area. And if you have already looked 5 minutes and then walk back to the tee, you tend to back up the course.

So don't go back to the tee. Put a provisional in play before you leave the tee if it might be lost. You probably have an idea if it might not be found. [quote name="David in FL" url="/t/80102/lost-ball-and-dropping-a-ball-question/36#post_1106356"] By the same reasoning, I assume that when your buddy busts one dead right into the trees, but it catches a branch that kicks it out into the fairway, you insist that he toss it back into the woods, right?  Clearly a bad shot shouldn't be rewarded if a good shot shouldn't be penalized...... [/quote] Second this. If you're going to equalize for bad luck, you need to equalize for good luck also.

[MrDC]

The OP has it right, like 2-3 minutes looking, can't find it drop one, take a stroke penalty, done, never go back.

Tournament play is different but this is standard weekend rules.

[dkolo]

The OP has it right, like 2-3 minutes looking, can't find it drop one, take a stroke penalty, done, never go back.

Tournament play is different but this is standard weekend rules.

Come on, man, he asked a rules question. This isn't what the rules are. You might find your procedure expeditious, but it's not correct. Let's just not confuse it for the guy.

It's really simple: if you lose a ball, you have to hit another one. You should never have to actually go back hit another one. Just play a provisional and you'll be golden.

If by some twist of fate you sincerely thought you were fine and still can't find the ball, take two strokes and get on with your day. Consider not submitting your round for handicap or at least use the stroke control to account for the issue

No one should ever have to go back to rehit.

[iacas]

My handicap is established in a league where we do have a local rule covering lost balls in areas where they shouldn't be lost.

In other words, your handicap is inaccurate.

We have a local rule about footprints in an unraked sand trap. Lift out of the foot print. I got that rule in place.

And… even more inaccurate.

I'm trying to get instituted a rule for unfilled divots. Play them as ground under repair. During the current Big Break, one of the golfers mentioned making a divot he could bury a dead cat in. I've been in a few of those. That "rub of the green" rubs me the wrong way. I always tell my opponents to lift it out of those craters. You don't need to be penalized like that after spriping a ball down the middle of the fairway. They pros all have nicely filled divots. Why should we play tougher conditions than the pros? Jack tried to get filled divots declared as ground under repair. I agree. That's why they say "repair your divots".

And… even more inaccurate.

Plenty of threads here on divots. And… you used "rub of the green" incorrectly. It has a very precise definition in the Rules of Golf. It does not mean "bad luck."

By the same reasoning, I assume that when your buddy busts one dead right into the trees, but it catches a branch that kicks it out into the fairway, you insist that he toss it back into the woods, right?  Clearly a bad shot shouldn't be rewarded if a good shot shouldn't be penalized......

That's what I always say.

Come on, man, he asked a rules question. This isn't what the rules are. You might find your procedure expeditious, but it's not correct. Let's just not confuse it for the guy.

It's really simple: if you lose a ball, you have to hit another one. You should never have to actually go back hit another one. Just play a provisional and you'll be golden.

If by some twist of fate you sincerely thought you were fine and still can't find the ball, take two strokes and get on with your day. Consider not submitting your round for handicap or at least use the stroke control to account for the issue

No one should ever have to go back to rehit.

This is the Rules forum. You're going to tend get "by the Rules of Golf" type answers.

To do otherwise is to play something that is not in the strictest sense "golf" but rather something similar to golf.

[RFKFREAK]

So, if I stripe it down the fairway and I can't find it and I don't go to back to the teebox and rehit, if I take a two stroke penalty, does that mean by the rules I shouldn't submit my card for my HC?

[dkolo]

So, if I stripe it down the fairway and I can't find it and I don't go to back to the teebox and rehit, if I take a two stroke penalty, does that mean by the rules I shouldn't submit my card for my HC?

I'd feel weird submitting it for HC purposes. I might consider just putting down the max for that hole via equitable score control. In that case, you'd have a clear conscience. That said, I wouldn't be apoplectic if you used the two stroke procedure. I'd have an issue if you just did one stroke both because it's BS and because the reduced penalty / cost of a lost ball allows you to be more cavalier in your risk taking, so you're playing differently. Like, I stopped hitting driver when I started following the rules for lost ball because I didn't want that kind of penalty 4-5 times per round.

I don't keep my handicap through GHIN because I don't play tournaments, so it's more for measuring my own progress. If I were using my handicap for anything like tournaments, I'd be really meticulous about scoring. I still am, but I don't stress about it too much.

[Dormie1360]

So, if I stripe it down the fairway and I can't find it and I don't go to back to the teebox and rehit, if I take a two stroke penalty, does that mean by the rules I shouldn't submit my card for my HC?

The USGA would tell you for handicap purposes, give yourself par plus any handicap strokes you would have received on that hole.  So if you are a 10 handicapper and the hole was the 9th handicapped hole, give yourself a bogey for the hole.  Of course the USGA would like you to play by the rules, but they do make some accommodations for an occasional hole not played under the rules.

An example given by the USGA, which is probably more common, is taking a mulligan on the tee box.

Another option would be to treat it as if you were posting a score in match play.  You can not find your ball and concede the hole.  Give yourself the score you would most likely have gotten if you would have finished the hole under the rules.....which means going back to the tee hitting 3.  As always, you would still need to consider your max equitable score when determining the final score for posting purposes.

[Dormie1360]

Also, keep in mind for the Handicap system to work properly, it assumes that you are not only trying to get the best score that you can on every hole, but are playing by the rules.

[RFKFREAK]

The USGA would tell you for handicap purposes, give yourself par plus any handicap strokes you would have received on that hole.  So if you are a 10 handicapper and the hole was the 9th handicapped hole, give yourself a bogey for the hole.  Of course the USGA would like you to play by the rules, but they do make some accommodations for an occasional hole not played under the rules. An example given by the USGA, which is probably more common, is taking a mulligan on the tee box. Another option would be to treat it as if you were posting a score in match play.  You can not find your ball and concede the hole.  Give yourself the score you would most likely have gotten if you would have finished the hole under the rules.....which means going back to the tee hitting 3.  As always, you would still need to consider your max equitable score when determining the final score for posting purposes.

Sweet, thanks.

[Club Rat]

Also, don't forget about ESC. When a player picks up or doesn't finish a hole,

and quote from above "Give yourself the score you would most likely have gotten if you would have finished the hole under the rules"

Suppose one of these players picked up his ball after being out of a hole to speed up play?

There is no limit to the number of holes on which you can adjust your score. Just scan your scorecard and locate any holes where your score (either actual or probable) exceeds the maximum num-ber you are allowed. Then reduce those higher hole scores to your maximum number and post your adjusted gross score for handicap purposes.

The USGA introduced a simple, straightforward, and easy-to-remember procedure to adjust scores under Equitable Stroke Control.

Equitable Stroke Control sets a maximum number that a player can post on any hole depending on the player's Course Handicap.

[vangator]

In other words, your handicap is inaccurate. And… even more inaccurate. And… even more inaccurate. Plenty of threads here on divots. And… you used "rub of the green" incorrectly. It has a very precise definition in the Rules of Golf. It does not mean "bad luck." That's what I always say. This is the Rules forum. You're going to tend get "by the Rules of Golf" type answers. To do otherwise is to play something that is not in the strictest sense "golf" but rather something similar to golf.

Sweet! I'm going to ask for more strokes next time I play. As for "rub of the green", if my ball bounces of my partners head and the ball goes out of bounds and he dies, that wouldn't be bad luck? Give me some of what you're smoking.

[vangator]

By the same reasoning, I assume that when your buddy busts one dead right into the trees, but it catches a branch that kicks it out into the fairway, you insist that he toss it back into the woods, right?  Clearly a bad shot shouldn't be rewarded if a good shot shouldn't be penalized......

I like the way you think. If I could convince him to toss it back in the woods, great! I'd penalize him for touching his ball too! Even better!

[vangator]

1) [SIZE=16px][COLOR=425245] [COLOR=333333] 27-4 [/COLOR] [/COLOR][/SIZE] Time Permitted for Search for Original Ball and Provisional Ball

Q. Is a player allowed five minutes to search for his original ball and five more minutes to search for his provisional ball, or just a total of five minutes?

A. If the two balls are so close together that, in effect, both balls would be searched for simultaneously, a total of five minutes for search is allowed. Otherwise, the player is allowed to search five minutes for each ball.

That's a scary thought. I've known guys that take multiple provisionals.

[vangator]

I like the way you think. Golf is difficult enough. When encountering conditions like unraked traps or non-replaced divots, under normal play, you shouldn't be penalized for the actions of others.:-)   (I might argue that for tournaments you have to go with "the rub of the green.")

Thanks. It is a game after all.