The Tiger Woods/PED Thread

[turtleback]

C"mon peeps, it's pretty much a known quantity that Tiger used PEDs at some point in his career. I played with 30 guys today. To a man, they believe it and most are die-hard Tiger fanboys.

The circumstantial evidence is too great. I know it but still appreciate that he is one of the GOAT. It helped him in his workouts; he's paying the price now. Is what it is. Not sure it'll ever come out publicly but jeez, it's purty obvious at this point.

30 guys?  Damn I bet play was slow.  But all this proves, if true, is that you know 30 people who are either ignorant or idiots.  There isn't any circumstantial evidence other than "he knows a guy."

My evidence is not he knows a guy. You are making that up.. My evidence is he got plasma or whatever other treatments from the guy.. And the extent of the treatments was exposed in a book along with the findings of the Florida health department investigation. It is in those treatments I believe he most likely had a little something added.

All the other points you made I have already discussed, we just don't agree let's move on.. We can't all have the same opinion...

The evidence is that he had legal treatments.  The rest is your own biases enhancing the story without any evidence.

Agreed.  There are plenty of other things listed in this thread that would lead one to be suspicious.  If there was hard proof that is public knowledge, then Tiger would already be banned.  So, it is just plain stupid to ask, "Where's your proof?"  OF COURSE, there is no proof that is available to the public.

No, there weren't many things listed in this thread.  Other than Abu's imaginings there has been no evidence.  Unless you call "he has acne", or "his hair is thinning" as evidence.

[jamo]

Unless you call "he has acne", or "his hair is thinning" as evidence.

Holy shit, my dad is on steroids!

[Gboroman]

Like what?

He's as large as a linebacker? No. He's more injury prone? Right, because nobody just gets injured playing golf. He knows a guy? So do thousands of others. He's recovered more quickly than he should have? Oh wait, no, he hasn't…

So what is it? Because I think 99% of the time the only evidence necessary to many is that they hate Tiger Woods.

I'm sure you are a very fine and intelligent person, but you can't seem to grasp the difference between proof and suspicion.  I'm not going to re-list the items that are contained in this thread and have been published in medical documents that can lead one to be suspicious of PED use only to have you respond line-by-line with possible reasons why they might not apply to Tiger or anyone else for that matter.  I'm tired of that game.  And, I'm not going to ask you to prove a negative.  As you know, facts and opinions are different.  You can mix the two, but they aren't the same.  All I'm going to say is stop trying to interpret an opinion as fact.  Just stop.  It makes you look less intelligent than you probably are.

99% of the people who think Tiger Woods may, MAY, MAY have taken PED's hate him?  LOL.  I must be in the 1%, then.  I think your point might be valid, though.  I can believe there is a large % of people who believe that Tiger took PEDs who want to see him fail.  It might have to do with racism.  It might have to do with the enjoyment of watching the mighty fall.  It might be that some people just don't like his personality or he treated them rudely by not signing an autograph between holes.  Maybe they don't want to see Jack's record fall.  Who knows?  Whatever the reason, NO ONE can deny Tiger has been great for his sport and has been a source of excitement and interest during his career.  So was Dale Earnhardt, but not everybody loved him, either.  By the way, I also believe those same people who hate Tiger and want to see him fail don't care if the cause is PED's, infidelity, injury, swing changes or whatever the reason.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunther

C"mon peeps, it's pretty much a known quantity that Tiger used PEDs at some point in his career. I played with 30 guys today. To a man, they believe it and most are die-hard Tiger fanboys.

The circumstantial evidence is too great. I know it but still appreciate that he is one of the GOAT. It helped him in his workouts; he's paying the price now. Is what it is. Not sure it'll ever come out publicly but jeez, it's purty obvious at this point.

30 guys?  Damn I bet play was slow.  But all this proves, if true, is that you know 30 people who are either ignorant or idiots.  There isn't any circumstantial evidence other than "he knows a guy."

This poll has been up for months and we haven't even had 30 yes votes.  Yet all 30 guys that Gunther plays with (who I'm sure he polled impartially ) agree with him?  More internet exaggeration, I do believe.

[newtogolf]

I'm sure you are a very fine and intelligent person, but you can't seem to grasp the difference between proof and suspicion.  I'm not going to re-list the items that are contained in this thread and have been published in medical documents that can lead one to be suspicious of PED use only to have you respond line-by-line with possible reasons why they might not apply to Tiger or anyone else for that matter.  I'm tired of that game.  And, I'm not going to ask you to prove a negative.  As you know, facts and opinions are different.  You can mix the two, but they aren't the same.  All I'm going to say is stop trying to interpret an opinion as fact.  Just stop.  It makes you look less intelligent than you probably are.

99% of the people who think Tiger Woods may, MAY, MAY have taken PED's hate him?  LOL.  I must be in the 1%, then.  I think your point might be valid, though.  I can believe there is a large % of people who believe that Tiger took PEDs who want to see him fail.  It might have to do with racism.  It might have to do with the enjoyment of watching the mighty fall.  It might be that some people just don't like his personality or he treated them rudely by not signing an autograph between holes.  Maybe they don't want to see Jack's record fall.  Who knows?  Whatever the reason, NO ONE can deny Tiger has been great for his sport and has been a source of excitement and interest during his career.  So was Dale Earnhardt, but not everybody loved him, either.  By the way, I also believe those same people who hate Tiger and want to see him fail don't care if the cause is PED's, infidelity, injury, swing changes or whatever the reason.

You need to read through the posts as you're missing a key point to our argument. @Abu3baid ated his "opinion" but then followed it up with " Sooner or later the truth will come out, but to say that for the people who believe he did PED don't have any ground to stand on is a little naive because of the history of PED and superstar athletes."

I don't know about you, but when someone says the "truth will come out" they have gone beyond opinion and into the I know something to be true or fact.  You can think, believe, be of the opinion, but when you're emphatic that something is true you either need to put up or shut up.

@Abu3baid ARod so now he's decided that anyone that used Anthony Galea as a doctor for treatment is guilty of using PED's despite all the testimony and statements made by those associated with Galea that Tiger did not use PEDS while under Galea's care.

Using the guilt by association rule, are you also accusing the entire Toronto Argonauts team, the St. Vincent Grenadine World Cup soccer team, Dara Torres, Mark McCoy, Jamal Lewis, Javon Walker, Santana Moss, Chris Simms and figure skater Patrick Chan of being PED's users too because they were clients of Galea along with Tiger and ARod?

[Gboroman]

You need to read through the posts as you're missing a key point to our argument.  @Abu3baid has not only stated his "opinion" but then followed it up with " Sooner or later the truth will come out, but to say that for the people who believe he did PED don't have any ground to stand on is a little naive because of the history of PED and superstar athletes."

I don't know about you, but when someone says the "truth will come out" they have gone beyond opinion and into the I know something to be true or fact.  You can think, believe, be of the opinion, but when you're emphatic that something is true you either need to put up or shut up.

@Abu3baid felt burned by ARod so now he's decided that anyone that used Anthony Galea as a doctor for treatment is guilty of using PED's despite all the testimony and statements made by those associated with Galea that Tiger did not use PEDS while under Galea's care.

Using the guilt by association rule, are you also accusing the entire Toronto Argonauts team, the St. Vincent Grenadine World Cup soccer team, Dara Torres, Mark McCoy, Jamal Lewis, Javon Walker, Santana Moss, Chris Simms and figure skater Patrick Chan of being PED's users too because they were clients of Galea along with Tiger and ARod?

Thanks, newtogolf.  You're right, I did miss that.  That crosses a line.  Whatever side of this argument you fall, I'm learning more and more that people will believe what they want to believe no matter what is said, done or displayed.  I guess that's called conviction.  Funny, that word is also the same word used when someone is found guilty of something.

[Gunther]

The point of bringing up the 30 guys wasn't to indicate that 100% of America believes Tiger used. It was to indicate that the majority certainly do, notwithstanding the die hards here who simply are deluding themselves with hope. And, that you don't have to be a Tiger hater to believe it cuz all these guys love Tiger.

[Golfingdad]

The point of bringing up the 30 guys wasn't to indicate that 100% of America believes Tiger used. It was to indicate that the majority certainly do,

Not sure how much stock you can put in what those 30 guys "agreed" to.  Many people don't have enough time, or frankly just don't care enough, to actually argue stuff like that.  If I was one of those 30 guys, I'd probably just nod in agreement as well.  Any leading questions posed to me by acquaintances on the golf course are more than likely going to be answered with a smile and a head nod.  It doesn't really mean I agree, it just means I don't care and I want to play golf.

notwithstanding the die hards here who simply are deluding themselves with hope.

I can't speak for all, but I think I can speak for many when I say that we just don't care that much.  We're not "defending" Tiger or "in love" with him, we're not "naive" about the possibility that he could have taken drugs, and we're certainly well aware of all of the other professional athletes that have as well.  We are simply using common sense and reason to back our position that there is nothing that counts as evidence that he has taken them, save for sharing a doctor with Alex Rodriguez.  If/when the evidence suggests otherwise, we'll change our position.  There is nothing deluded about that.  It's only prudence.

[jbishop15]

Not sure how much stock you can put in what those 30 guys "agreed" to.  Many people don't have enough time, or frankly just don't care enough, to actually argue stuff like that.  If I was one of those 30 guys, I'd probably just nod in agreement as well.  Any leading questions posed to me by acquaintances on the golf course are more than likely going to be answered with a smile and a head nod.  It doesn't really mean I agree, it just means I don't care and I want to play golf.

I can't speak for all, but I think I can speak for many when I say that we just don't care that much.  We're not "defending" Tiger or "in love" with him, we're not "naive" about the possibility that he could have taken drugs, and we're certainly well aware of all of the other professional athletes that have as well.  We are simply using common sense and reason to back our position that there is nothing that counts as evidence that he has taken them, save for sharing a doctor with Alex Rodriguez.  If/when the evidence suggests otherwise, we'll change our position.  There is nothing deluded about that.  It's only prudence.

Pretty much dead on. As much as I love Tiger, I'm not defending him because I'm a fan, I'm defending him because I don't think the evidence points to him being guilty. There's a lot of stuff floating around him that perhaps engenders people to be reluctant to give him the benefit of the doubt, but two people in his inner circle have come out and emphatically said that he has not taken PED's. There also has been at least one unauthorized biography that hammered him pretty solid that made no mention of it either.

The reason that the tabloids haven't really come up with anything regarding PED usage for Tiger is because there probably isn't any. Tiger is an easy target now, and one that people would believe took PED's because of his other transgressions. But there's been so little coverage by the press on it. If there was something, I think, they would find it. If there was anything that even remotely pointed towards the conclusion of him using PED's, they would put it on the front page. But, there hasn't been, at least not to my knowledge.

[Gunther]

Not sure how much stock you can put in what those 30 guys "agreed" to.  Many people don't have enough time, or frankly just don't care enough, to actually argue stuff like that.  If I was one of those 30 guys, I'd probably just nod in agreement as well.  Any leading questions posed to me by acquaintances on the golf course are more than likely going to be answered with a smile and a head nod.  It doesn't really mean I agree, it just means I don't care and I want to play golf. I can't speak for all, but I think I can speak for many when I say that we just don't care that much.  We're not "defending" Tiger or "in love" with him, we're not "naive" about the possibility that he could have taken drugs, and we're certainly well aware of all of the other professional athletes that have as well.  We are simply using common sense and reason to back our position that there is nothing that counts as evidence that he has taken them, save for sharing a doctor with Alex Rodriguez.  If/when the evidence suggests otherwise, we'll change our position.  There is nothing deluded about that.  It's only prudence.

I respect this position and appreciate the tone of your response.

[iacas]

I'm sure you are a very fine and intelligent person, but you can't seem to grasp the difference between proof and suspicion.

This thread isn't about suspicion. The question doesn't ask whether you suspect he did PEDs. The question asks whether you have enough evidence that you think he DID do PEDs.

"I think he did PEDs" != "I think he may have done PEDs."

I'm not going to re-list the items that are contained in this thread and have been published in medical documents that can lead one to be suspicious of PED use only to have you respond line-by-line with possible reasons why they might not apply to Tiger or anyone else for that matter.

There aren't that many.

All I'm going to say is stop trying to interpret an opinion as fact.  Just stop.  It makes you look less intelligent than you probably are.

I'm not doing that. I'm saying it's an unreasonable opinion based on virtually nothing (and nothing at all substantial).

99% of the people who think Tiger Woods may, MAY, MAY have taken PED's hate him?

Not what I said. I think Tiger may have taken PEDs. I don't think he did. Do you not see the distinction between those two? I'm saying I don't think there's a 0% chance, but I'm also saying I do not believe we're at 50% or higher, either.

The point of bringing up the 30 guys wasn't to indicate that 100% of America believes Tiger used. It was to indicate that the majority certainly do, notwithstanding the die hards here who simply are deluding themselves with hope. And, that you don't have to be a Tiger hater to believe it cuz all these guys love Tiger.

I'm seeing a commonality among those who have the opinion that he did PEDs to just make shit up. The majority? Ooooookay.

I can't speak for all, but I think I can speak for many when I say that we just don't care that much.  We're not "defending" Tiger or "in love" with him, we're not "naive" about the possibility that he could have taken drugs, and we're certainly well aware of all of the other professional athletes that have as well.  We are simply using common sense and reason to back our position that there is nothing that counts as evidence that he has taken them, save for sharing a doctor with Alex Rodriguez.  If/when the evidence suggests otherwise, we'll change our position.  There is nothing deluded about that.  It's only prudence.

Uh huh.

[turtleback]

I'm sure you are a very fine and intelligent person, but you can't seem to grasp the difference between proof and suspicion.  I'm not going to re-list the items that are contained in this thread and have been published in medical documents that can lead one to be suspicious of PED use only to have you respond line-by-line with possible reasons why they might not apply to Tiger or anyone else for that matter.  I'm tired of that game.  And, I'm not going to ask you to prove a negative.  As you know, facts and opinions are different.  You can mix the two, but they aren't the same.  All I'm going to say is stop trying to interpret an opinion as fact.  Just stop.  It makes you look less intelligent than you probably are.

99% of the people who think Tiger Woods may, MAY, MAY have taken PED's hate him?  LOL.  I must be in the 1%, then.  I think your point might be valid, though.  I can believe there is a large % of people who believe that Tiger took PEDs who want to see him fail.  It might have to do with racism.  It might have to do with the enjoyment of watching the mighty fall.  It might be that some people just don't like his personality or he treated them rudely by not signing an autograph between holes.  Maybe they don't want to see Jack's record fall.  Who knows?  Whatever the reason, NO ONE can deny Tiger has been great for his sport and has been a source of excitement and interest during his career.  So was Dale Earnhardt, but not everybody loved him, either.  By the way, I also believe those same people who hate Tiger and want to see him fail don't care if the cause is PED's, infidelity, injury, swing changes or whatever the reason.

Maybe the problem is that you have forgotten the premise on which the thread was based.  Te poll question was not "are you suspicious".  It wasn't "Do you think it is possible.".  It was "Do You Believe Tiger Violated Rules and Took PEDs?"

The other truth which has been ignored up to now is that as thin as the "evidence" that has been adduced here is, the exact same general charges were being made years and years ago before anyone ever head of this Dr.  Anyone who was around on golf message board like the Golf Channel boards or rec.sports.golf on usenet in the early 2000s knows that there have ALWAYS been those who, in a complete absence of evidence, were claiming Tiger was using PEDS.  So for many people the paper thin "evidence" serves as a pretext for bringing back what they were saying before this "evidence" existed.

Maybe not you personally, but a lot of folks.

[Spitfisher]

I don't know of one PED user.... That admitted to PED use, before they were caught. Sounds crazy, but it does go along. Some continue to deny it, even after they get caught.

[Golfingdad]

I don't know of one PED user.... That admitted to PED use, before they were caught. Sounds crazy, but it does go along. Some continue to deny it, even after they get caught.

Jason Giambi.

[jbishop15]

I don't know of one PED user.... That admitted to PED use, before they were caught. Sounds crazy, but it does go along. Some continue to deny it, even after they get caught.

[quote name="Golfingdad" url="/t/80150/the-tiger-woods-ped-thread/330#post_1151044"] Jason Giambi.[/quote] Bronson Arroyo

[dkolo]

I don't know of one PED user.... That admitted to PED use, before they were caught. Sounds crazy, but it does go along.

Some continue to deny it, even after they get caught.

Jason Giambi.

Bronson Arroyo

Ken Caminiti, Jose Canseco, not to mention all the guys who openly did amphetamines.

I'd throw in Dock Ellis, but not many people consider LSD a performance enhancing drug, haha.

[Golfingdad]

Ken Caminiti, Jose Canseco, not to mention all the guys who openly did amphetamines.

Sooo ... Every single MLB player from the 70's and 80's?? ;)

[jamo]

Ken Caminiti, Jose Canseco, not to mention all the guys who openly did amphetamines.

Hank Aaron.