Are there too many rules in golf?

[Fourputt]

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-01

To date, there are 32 rules listed in a book that is 180 pages plus and many of those rules are further broken down into subsections. Now to me, that's over kill. But lets not forget, that the ruling bodies (USGA / R&A;) have meetings, to discuss existing rules or to add new rules and/or possible subsections. As Dave PO43 offered. there were originally 13 rules, that seemed to cover what needed to be covered and was simplistic (1 page), compared to what we have now. When folks have to have a discussion or debate on a ruling, because one of the sub-sections may be causing a complete understanding of what and why, then it's not as black and white as some think.

Yeah, but after number 28 they mostly apply to alternate forms of play and to the committee when running a competition.  They certainly aren't concerned with what most of us deal with when playing.  Those original 13 rules clearly did not cover everything or they would never have needed to modifiy them.  I defy you to play a half dozen rounds by those rules without coming up against a situation which they don't address.

[Asheville]

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-01

To date, there are 32 rules listed in a book that is 180 pages plus and many of those rules are further broken down into subsections. Now to me, that's over kill. But lets not forget, that the ruling bodies (USGA / R&A;) have meetings, to discuss existing rules or to add new rules and/or possible subsections. As Dave PO43 offered. there were originally 13 rules, that seemed to cover what needed to be covered and was simplistic (1 page), compared to what we have now. When folks have to have a discussion or debate on a ruling, because one of the sub-sections may be causing a complete understanding of what and why, then it's not as black and white as some think.

Let us know how it goes when you play while complying with the first Rule!

1. You must Tee your Ball within a Club's length of the Hole.

[disco111]

Let us know how it goes when you play while complying with the first Rule!

1. You must Tee your Ball within a Club's length of the Hole.

Probably still make a bogey!......

[iacas]

To date, there are 32 rules listed in a book that is 180 pages plus and many of those rules are further broken down into subsections. Now to me, that's over kill. But lets not forget, that the ruling bodies (USGA / R&A;) have meetings, to discuss existing rules or to add new rules and/or possible subsections. As Dave PO43 offered. there were originally 13 rules, that seemed to cover what needed to be covered and was simplistic (1 page), compared to what we have now. When folks have to have a discussion or debate on a ruling, because one of the sub-sections may be causing a complete understanding of what and why, then it's not as black and white as some think.

Two quick points:

• Other sports have rules books that are as big or bigger than the Rules of Golf. This, despite playing on relatively uniform surfaces, etc.
• The 13 original rules don't cover a lot of situations, many of which are required by the non-uniform surfaces on which we play.

[jlbos83]

One of the basic tenets of the rules is that there should be a progression in penalty based on the relative seriousness of the infraction. Your recommendations discard that simple principle.

I agree. I threw our the idea of stroke and distance more to show why we need more than two rules than to suggest it was a good idea. I generally agree that it makes sense to have different penalties for different infractions, though I'm not sure that's a necessity based on the original rules.

[DaveP043]

An interesting aside, while I was looking for the 13 original rules, I stumbled onto this website:

http://www.ruleshistory.com/

In it are discussions of the many different sets of rules that the game has had, including variations between different clubs at any one time, and changes to those rules over the last 270 years.  There seem to be lots of interesting variations.  In St. Andrews at one time, if a player hit his ball into the water, he had to throw the ball 6 yards behind the water before the next shot.  After reading some of the variations between clubs, its really not so bad that we have only two sets of rules now, and the R&A; and USGA do try to coordinate them as much as possible.

[Mugs050]

Two rules to change which would help pace of play and help make golf more fun.

-All Hazards/OB play as one stroke lateral hazards. Drop at point of entry

- If your ball lands in a fairway divot not rough but fairway you can move it out onto some good grass

[Shindig]

Two rules to change which would help pace of play and help make golf more fun. -All Hazards/OB play as one stroke lateral hazards. Drop at point of entry

This completely negates the purpose of O.B. -- having a harsher penalty than a lateral hazard to strongly discourage anyone from playing towards it. [quote name="Mugs050" url="/t/82265/are-there-too-many-rules-in-golf/18#post_1147864"] - If your ball lands in a fairway divot not rough but fairway you can move it out onto some good grass [/quote] What is a fairway divot, and how can I distinguish it from other imperfections in the fairway surface? What constitutes good grass, and how far away am I allowed to look for it? Right next to the cup is good grass.

[Mugs050]

This completely negates the purpose of O.B. -- having a harsher penalty than a lateral hazard to strongly discourage anyone from playing towards it.

What is a fairway divot, and how can I distinguish it from other imperfections in the fairway surface? What constitutes good grass, and how far away am I allowed to look for it? Right next to the cup is good grass.

Okay I will revise. I will say OB should only be if your not on the course. For example Houses are OB but a forest area which I see sometimes being white stakes should not be OB. Or a driving range granted if the course puts up a local rule that you do not enter just take a drop.

This completely negates the purpose of O.B. -- having a harsher penalty than a lateral hazard to strongly discourage anyone from playing towards it.

What is a fairway divot, and how can I distinguish it from other imperfections in the fairway surface? What constitutes good grass, and how far away am I allowed to look for it? Right next to the cup is good grass.

Club length no close to the hole. If you can't find good grass then your SOL.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shindig

This completely negates the purpose of O.B. -- having a harsher penalty than a lateral hazard to strongly discourage anyone from playing towards it.

What is a fairway divot, and how can I distinguish it from other imperfections in the fairway surface? What constitutes good grass, and how far away am I allowed to look for it? Right next to the cup is good grass.

Okay I will revise. I will say OB should only be if your not on the course. For example Houses are OB but a forest area which I see sometimes being white stakes should not be OB. Or a driving range granted if the course puts up a local rule that you do not enter just take a drop.

I agree with the sentiment although it is slightly OT.   The change would  immediately improve my HI by 2 points.  My home course is inside a vineyards and all of them are OB.   Where do I sign the petition for the rule change?   Who do I need to bribe to make it happen?   Joking aside, my course was planning to make the change to make the course more playable.   That was last year but the white sticks around vineyards are still standing.   Many casual golfers treat them like hazards anyway.   It's only the serious ones who are hitting provisions.

[Shindig]

[QUOTE name="Shindig" url="/t/82265/are-there-too-many-rules-in-golf/18#post_1147875"] This completely negates the purpose of O.B. -- having a harsher penalty than a lateral hazard to strongly discourage anyone from playing towards it. What is a fairway divot, and how can I distinguish it from other imperfections in the fairway surface? What constitutes good grass, and how far away am I allowed to look for it? Right next to the cup is good grass.[/QUOTE] Okay I will revise. I will say OB should only be if your not on the course. For example Houses are OB but a forest area which I see sometimes being white stakes should not be OB. Or a driving range granted if the course puts up a local rule that you do not enter just take a drop.

First, the O.B. only if you're not on the course is a USGA suggestion too. So your preference is in line with that of the rules folks there. And making it so you can't hit from the driving range is a common safety precaution. Still, though, the purpose of O.B. is to strongly discourage balls from going there, and make you plan your shot accordingly. Allowing you to drop where you entered defeats part of the purpose. (if it seems like I'm giving you a hard time, I apologize -- I really do think the current O.B. rules are good) [quote name="Mugs050" url="/t/82265/are-there-too-many-rules-in-golf/18#post_1147877"] [QUOTE name="Shindig" url="/t/82265/are-there-too-many-rules-in-golf/18#post_1147875"] This completely negates the purpose of O.B. -- having a harsher penalty than a lateral hazard to strongly discourage anyone from playing towards it. What is a fairway divot, and how can I distinguish it from other imperfections in the fairway surface? What constitutes good grass, and how far away am I allowed to look for it? Right next to the cup is good grass.[/QUOTE] Club length no close to the hole. If you can't find good grass then your SOL.  [/quote] I still haven't been told what a fairway divot is, and how I can distinguish it from other imperfections in the fairway surface. The problem with introducing a rule like this is defining the terms. Have you read Erik's "rules in one page" challenge thread? I think you'll find it interesting.

[turtleback]

Okay I will revise.

There it is, your rule was literally 37 minutes old and already you had to revise it.  Making rules that actually cover the whole gamut of possibilities, formulated under a unifying set of principles* is not quite as simple as people think.  And while I do not mean this to sound harsh, I take much more seriously the opinions about the rules of folks who have taken the trouble to understand WHY the rules are the way they are.

It isn't easy at all to make rules.  You skated on the question of  the definition of a divot in the fairway from which you get relief.  You also violated one of the key principles in the rules, namely, if you take relief you have to take full relief.  Your rules provide relief for a situation, yet admit the possibility of partial or no relief at all.  If the divot is worth of relief  it is worthy of relief, and relief should be given regardless of whether there is a decent lie within a clublength. Or is there some special virtue (or special evil) in hitting into a divot when there is (or isn't) a good lie within a clublength?

Oh, and what if that clublength gives you relief from something else that ordinarily does not get relief, like being behind a tree?  Will this be one of those situation where relief from one thing might give you relief from another (like a drop from a sprinkler head in the fringe might allow you to drop on the green) or will it be a case where you do not get relief if there is some other condition also affecting the shot.  Like you do not get relief from certain immovable obstructions if there is something else making the stroke impracticable (Exception under rule 24-2).  I don't have a clue how this would work under your rule.  And sure you can come with an answer now, but the rules makers don't get that luxury, they have to try to provide for every possibility BEFORE they come up.

It is easy to throw out ad hoc changes to rules you do not like.  But it is usually even easier to pick apart any such changes, as in this case.

And that is why no one has ever taken @iacas up on his challenge to come up with an actual set of "simplified" rules that will adequately cover the play of the game and all the situations that may arise.  No one has and likely no one will because it is actually a very daunting task - one almost everyone will give up on before getting very far.

*(which are outlined in a little book called, Principles Behind The Rules of Golf.

https://www.usgashop.com/Media/Books/id-USGAED0020/Principles_Behind_The_Rules_of_Golf_Paperback_2012_Edition

[DrvFrShow]

Fairway divots are those four to six inch long ditches taken out of the sod by a golf club making a stroke. Examples are below. My ball has ended up in one like the middle and right.

Ending up in the one in the middle after hammering a drive is called a #@!!%!!!@#$!!!, and no one in non-competitive round play will play out of one like that anyway. But if your club is playing winter rules with lift and clean you get to move out of it anyway.

[VOX]

Fairway divots are those four to six inch long ditches taken out of the sod by a golf club making a stroke. Examples are below. My ball has ended up in one like the middle and right. [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/122865/] [/URL] [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/122866/] [/URL] [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/122867/] [/URL] Ending up in the one in the middle after hammering a drive is called a #@!!%!!!@#$!!!, and no one in non-competitive round play will play out of one like that anyway. But if your club is playing winter rules with lift and clean you get to move out of it anyway.

Just to be precise, those are divot holes. The divot is the piece of turf that has been removed. The issue often cited for not allowing relief from divot holes is that it would be difficult to determine when the hole had healed enough to no longer be considered a divot hole.

[Shindig]

no one in non-competitive round play will play out of one like that anyway. But if your club is playing winter rules with lift and clean you get to move out of it anyway.

I played out of one a few weeks ago in a non-competitive round. Hit a great drive, found the ball in one of those. Hit a 9-iron out of it, nice and solid, made birdie even. Not sure what winter rules are; the index in my rules book must be incomplete. If there's already a provision in the book for taking relief, it's news to me.

[DrvFrShow]

You're too far south. You don't have winter in Los Angeles. Shut up. We have muck up here in the Seattle area until June. Courses have "preferred lies" in effect until then. Some courses have fairways that are squishy and they have large areas of GUR, and also in April some of them have large areas of casual water. Also the rough up here in the spring can be really rough since it isn't mowed very well until it dries out and it's thick and wet and sometimes a bit mucky. Fairways have been aerated. You get the picture. So they allow you to lift and clean and place your ball within 6" of where it landed. It's not in the USGA handbook. They're local rules. Disadvantage: ones handicap can artificially drop because you can play from perfect lies... then summer hits.

A divot hole that has healed isn't usually a problem. I play out of those. There's grass in them. It's when they're fresh like these in the picture.

Another pet peeve of mine is people who do not rake the bunker when they're done. We have some real slobs who play. Their ball goes in, and yes they're pissed their ball went in. They it the ball really fat and dig a ditch or two. I hit my ball and it lands in the bunker and because their ditch is in the low point, my ball rolls into it. Now according to normal rules I have to play it or take an unplayable lie and drop somewhere else in the bunker no nearer the hole. I get penalized because of someone else's conduct. I should have taken a photo of it, but I didn't have  a smartphone at the time. In this case dropping no nearer the hole was a riot because the ball kept rolling into the trench due to the shape of the bunker and the condition of the sand. I would have loved to have filled in the hole and hit from the spot, but that would have been "testing the sand". Not that I didn't know what the crap was like. It was wet. The play was to chip backwards toward the apron and then up. Not keep digging the hole. X the hole and move on.

They also should have something for a casual round. Say you have a situation like at a local dog track where there are some old pine trees. You manage to hit your ball onto the left side of the fairway and there are tree roots. Okay, I know you can take an "unplayable lie", but two club lengths aren't going to cut it. You'll end up taking about two or three unplayables or go back and rehit. Or that other option where you put your spot between you and the flag and go back as far as you want puts you down in the muck near a creek isn't fun. So you look at it tap the ground with your club and find a spot where there aren't any roots and place your ball and hit. Or end up picking up Xing out the hole and go onto the next hole. Now if you've played the course before you know where the roots are so you'll lay up. It turns the hole into a very long par 4 since your approach shot is now very long. Of course the real fix is course maintenance - the tree needs to come down and the roots need to be removed from the fairway. It used to be a nice course but they really let it go to hell.

[mvmac]

They are pretty much black and white. There really is no debate in the rules. People just make a big stink about some situations because they think they get the short end of the stick.

Yeah they seem to forget the rules decisions that work in their favor.

I voted "No" in the poll. Most of the rules are simple and pretty straight forward.

Also there's an app now

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.usga.rulesofgolf&hl;=en

[rdsandy]

Sometimes there are additional rules that must be followed: