The Definitive Pace of Play Thread

[ghalfaire]

It's certainly a factor but without someone enforcing the 11-13 minutes per hole you're going to have slow-downs regardless of how well you space each group.

Case in point:  A couple weeks ago I went out by myself right after a tournament and the course was empty... or so I thought.  As I was heading down the 3rd fairway a twosome was teeing off on 12 (a short par 3).  I caught up to them on hole 16.  They took about 3 hours to play 9 holes of golf.  I played 18 in 2-2.5.  I may have even made it under two but this twosome is also really good and not giving a shit about the people waiting behind them.  So the last 2 holes was me sitting around a lot.

Here are things I see alot:  people interrupt their golfing to talk, they will stand around on a green because the guy who is raking the bunker is still farthest from the hole, they will stalk a putt as if they're about to win the US Open, they drive to one ball watch the guy hit it after careful deliberation then drive to the next ball.  They will stop the cart girl on the 9th fairway to buy drinks when the path from 9 to 10 takes them right past the clubhouse bar.  They will park the cart near the green, grab a wedge, walk back to their ball, hit it, walk back to the cart, get a putter, walk back to the green....

There is no question there are sometimes slow play for reasons other than tee time spacing.  But like the freeway and rush hour the most significant slow down is just too many golfers on the course.  So like an accident at rush hour these other things on the course exacerbate an already bad situation.

[BuckeyeNut]

not rushing..............................

It should never take more than 3.5hrs for a foursome to play 18 holes.  Waiting on slow non-golfers that don't have a clue is painful which is why I play EARLY in front of the clusterf*ck. (in front of them)  I also play evenings.....later the better!  I sometimes make the turn to play the front again once it empties out so I can breeze through as a single late.

As Sweet Sugar Brown once eloquently stated..........."Aint Nobody Got Time For That!"

Sweet Brown speaks the truth!!  LOL

[colin007]

I second the thought that 3.5 hrs is the reasonable expectation for a foursome to play. If it takes you and your group longer then you're slow. Playing in 4 hours means you're waiting on holes. Simple as that.

[sjduffers]

I believe the real problem is the course management doesn't schedule for 3.5 or 4.0 hours for a round. 7 Minutes between tee times is a 2.1 hour round.   Most foursome can't do that.  So the math is simple and I rest my case.

Your math is wrong.  Nobody says the hole should take 7 or 8 minutes to play, but merely that groups tee off 7 or 8 minutes apart. Since the average course has 4 par 3s and 4 par 5s, the rest (i.e 10 holes) being par 4s, there should be an average of 2 groups on every hole, so if they start 7 or 8 minutes apart, each group should finish in an average of 14 to 16 minutes.  At 15 minutes per hole, that is a 4.5 hours round, not exactly lightning quick!  So, no, the golfers are the problem, not the overcrowded courses.

True, everyone can drive the speed limit, say 65 on the freeway, and if you try this at rush hour, it won't work, because most people aren't able to drive 65mph following the car in front of them (safely) 15-20ft behind them, so they slow down a bit, and a bit more... and a bit more until everybody can finally stay 20ft behind the car in front of them, driving 30mph. The same thing occurs on a golf course: if one group takes an extra 5 minutes on a hole, either because they are looking for balls or because they are totally ineffective in managing their time and their game, the following group will also take 5 minutes more than they should have and if they lose another couple of minutes from the "ideal" pace, things get even worse from there. But the culprits are the golfers, not anything else.

[Patch]

All this math is mind boggling. Here's mine;

10 minutes per hole = 3 hours. On a par 4, to hit two shots and 2 putts you would have 2 .5 minutes to walk to and hit those 4 shots.

12 minutes per hole  = 3.6 hours (you figure it out)

15 minutes per hole = 4.5 hours.  (you figure it out)

On average, I walk @ 2.5 mph. A 680 0 yard course is 3.86 miles.  It would take me 1.54 hours just to walk 3.86 miles.

So;

3 hours - 1.54 hours =  1.46 hours / 18 holes = 4.86 minutes in golf shots, per hole. Par for par 4 would be a shot every 1.21 minutes

3.6 hours - 1.54 hours = 2.06 hours / 18 holes = 6.86 minutes in golf shots, per hole. Par for a par 4 would be a shot every 1.7 minutes.

4.5 hours - 1.54 hours = 2.96 hours / 18 holes = 9.86 minutes in golf shots per hole. Par for a par 4 would be a shot every 2.45 minutes.

My math sucks, so flame me if you will. I just took this off the top of my head. The formulas may not even be right. lol...............

[sjduffers]

On average, I walk @ 2.5 mph. A 6800 yard course is 3.86 miles.  It would take me 1.54 hours just to walk 3.86 miles.

You do realize the the 6800 yds distance is in a straight line (via the middle of the doglegs) and does not include things like:

* Walking from the previous green to next tee box

* Walking at an angle towards the edge of the fairway or the rough

* Walking around in the rough (or trees), looking for a ball

* Walking from one side of the fairway back to the other side to help your partner find his ball

* Walking past the green to leave your push cart and/or bag there, ready for the next hole, picking a couple clubs and going to the front of the green to chip up and putt

* Walking up to the flagstick, removing it and then going to your ball (unless you like to break that rule...)

* Walking around a bunker to properly rake it

* Walking around the green to scope your putt

* Walking to the bathroom (some use trees for that, hick!) for...

Anyway, you catch my drift, there is a lot more walking than the stated distance of the course.  I routinely play around 6500 yds and walk more than 5 or 6 miles, as measured by my phone. There is typically more than 2.5 hours of walking in a round. Assuming 2.5 hours, finishing in 3 hours and shooting 90 leaves you about 20 seconds per stroke, which is amply sufficient in my experience.

But yes, some people can't pull the trigger in more than a minute, needing to: pace the yardage, put their glove on, pick a club from the cart, assess the slope, the wind, change their mind about the club, so walk back to the cart and pick a different club, reassess the wind, 2 practice strokes, step in, step back out because a fly disturbed them, 2 more practice strokes, step in, freeze over the ball for 10 seconds and then finally go, except they were so frozen (in fear, in swing thoughts, who knows?) that they top the ball 50 yds and have to do it over again for a total of 100+ strokes.  How many wasted minutes or hours is that?

[DrvFrShow]

Just as an FYI, I started my round today at 2:20 pm, and finished at 5:40 pm. 3 hrs 20 mins, and honestly I think I'm kind of a slow player. I had a twosome from a local college team in front of me, and I was gaining on them. This was on a local public track, however, not a spread out course.

I wasn't looking for my ball on every hole. I wasn't taking super risky shots where I'd end up looking for my ball. I hit a provisional on 14 when I thought my third shot was lost - basically if I didn't see it from the cart path I wasn't going to look for it - it was in the rough on the fairway side of the cart path. I played smart shots. I made some bad shots, yes, but I made smart recovery shots. So.... That's why it didn't take me forever. I kept the ball in play for the most part.

[Lihu]

But yes, some people can't pull the trigger in more than a minute, needing to: pace the yardage, put their glove on, pick a club from the cart, assess the slope, the wind, change their mind about the club, so walk back to the cart and pick a different club, reassess the wind, 2 practice strokes, step in, step back out because a fly disturbed them, 2 more practice strokes, step in, freeze over the ball for 10 seconds and then finally go, except they were so frozen (in fear, in swing thoughts, who knows?) that they top the ball 50 yds and have to do it over again for a total of 100+ strokes.  How many wasted minutes or hours is that?

The rounds where you are stuck behind players like this last far more than 4.5 hours. Sounds more like a 6+ hour round. . .

[turtleback]

Ready golf or not has a minimal impact on pace. . . .

The irony of ready golf is that if people were just ready to play when it was their turn it would not be needed.  It really should be called UNready golf, because when hit out of turn it is not because YOU were ready, it was because the OTHER GUY was NOT ready.

[Dave2512]

My guess is the more casual types don't understand it's not supposed to take half day to finish. Also probably don't understand why more serious players don't want to be out there all day watching them hacking it up. They are there to slap each other on the back and high five for a long putt regardless if it's for birdie or quad and say stupid shit like nice shot every time the ball manages to stay in the air for more than 50 feet. I have no doubt they aren't there for the same reasons I am.

[Fourputt]

Ready golf or not has a minimal impact on pace. The slow people I see can't play ready golf because the a) don't hit the ball well and b) they chase and hunt for balls all day. It takes them an absurd amount of time to finish a hole because they are always in trouble. I've played behind guys that would drive Furyk nuts. I mean walkers that you could crawl faster than that stand over putts for what seems like minutes and they are still faster than the ball chasers.

This happened to me last night. Left work early to try and squeeze in 18, got to the course at 4:25, sunset was 7:17 so it shouldn't be a problem. By the time these a-holes at concessions wasted 5 minutes asking the poor attendant for every silly request known to man a threesome that was at the range got to the first tee before me. I figured no problem I will pass them on two. Everybody in the group hit a crap drive and that started the hunting and waiting. By then it was 4:31 and I was starting to worry knowing it would take a bit to get to hole 2. It took them until 4:49 to finish the hole. Just stupid, silly golf that was miserable to watch. I actually hit a lay up shot instead of going for the green to let them know I wasn't out there to mess around because they were dallying around the green, and because it was windy and I would have had to hit a risky shot over water wind blowing hard (20 mph) towards the pond.

By the time I finished hole 1 it was nearly 5 so all in all I was on one hole almost a half hour. They hit more shit drives on two and the hunting started again. I drove around them skipping the hole to boogie on 3. I played 4-5-6 and saw them just finishing on 3. I managed to fly through the front and most of the back before catching the jackwads I saw at the concession counter. They started on the back. So in the time it took me to play 12 holes the had played just 4 as a threesome. No joke I hit my drive on 14 and waited behind them as they chipped, putted and did whatever for 6 minutes and they were already up there before I got to the tee.

None of them seemed to be in a hurry and were seemingly oblivious to how slow they really were. The crazy thing was the second slow group waved my up to play through. As slow as they were the second I left my spot in front of them their balls were in the air, it was a par 3 and I saw two balls bounce into junk because the next tee is so close you don't have to move the cart between holes. As I was heading down 18 fairway they still hadn't made finished that hole. These are the people I see dragging the pace to a halt. They can't play ready golf because the don't know where the dang ball is 3/4 of the time.

Ready golf is NEVER irrelevant.  Playing ready golf always has a positive an impact on pace over not playing ready golf.  I don't care how many strokes you take or how many balls you lose, if you are committed to ready golf, you won't be the one holding up the course.

I can shoot over 100 and still play as fast as anyone I know.  You are essentially saying that poor players can't play fast, and that is hogwash.  Not all good players are fast and not all bad players are slow.  Ready golf means being ready when it's time to play, no excuses.  You get to search until the next landing area clears, or if there is no delay then you take a couple of minutes max and then play, either with your provisional or drop and hit - I don't care.  If you don't follow this sort of a plan then you aren't playing ready golf, and you will be one of the slow players.  If a player is so bad that he holds up the course even under this procedure, then he's on the wrong course - he should be playing a par 3 or executive course until he has some semblance of control.  That or move to the most forward tees, and still be ready to pick up your ball and move ahead if you lag behind.

My guess is the more casual types don't understand it's not supposed to take half day to finish. Also probably don't understand why more serious players don't want to be out there all day watching them hacking it up. They are there to slap each other on the back and high five for a long putt regardless if it's for birdie or quad and say stupid shit like nice shot every time the ball manages to stay in the air for more than 50 feet. I have no doubt they aren't there for the same reasons I am.

I don't see it as casual types (whatever that is).  It's more often players who never played when golf moved at a good pace.  They've never seen a round where they didn't have to wait, so they think it's normal, and even necessary.  They need education and positive reinforcement, not castigation.

[DrvFrShow]

Well casual players aren't necessarily bad players or slow players either. I don't consider myself a serious player. Just because I want to play a decent round of golf doesn't make me a serious player. I consider serious players those who play in tournaments on a regular basis.

The majority of the problem that slows down the game is not keeping the ball in play. I remember when I first started playing I shot around 124 for 18 holes, and I wouldn't try hacking it out of really bad lies in the woods, either, but the ball would go into the woods quite frequently, and I can't afford to lose a dozen balls a round. So I'd take time to look, and end up letting a couple of groups play through.

Lessons: the key to faster pace of play.

[Dave2512]

Ready golf is NEVER irrelevant.    You are essentially saying that poor players can't play fast, and that is hogwash.

Ya think? Tell me how can anyone constantly looking for balls can play fast. You can't play ready golf if you are searching. For ready golf to work you have to be able to drive or walk directly to a ball, be standing over it ready to swing as soon as it's clear. What I see is people losing the groups ahead because they rarely complete the process of hitting bad shots and being able to hit the next one as soon as possible before the group ahead moves on. I am a ready golf advocate but I  don't see people dawdling over balls I see people looking for balls. Your experience may be different.

[DrvFrShow]

Ya think? Tell me how can anyone constantly looking for balls can play fast. You can't play ready golf if you are searching. For ready golf to work you have to be able to drive or walk directly to a ball, be standing over it ready to swing as soon as it's clear. What I see is people losing the groups ahead because they rarely complete the process of hitting bad shots and being able to hit the next one as soon as possible before the group ahead moves on. I am a ready golf advocate but I  don't see people dawdling over balls I see people looking for balls. Your experience may be different.

It used to take me 4.5 hrs to play 18 holes. Yesterday it took me 3 hrs 20 mins. I didn't lose a single ball, and my Game Golf shows every recovery shot except for one was from the second cut, and I hit two into the woods, which I tracked off the tee and found them immediately. My recovery shot was a smart knockdown through the widest gap in the trees -- note the widest gap allowing for the greatest chance of success because... I suck as a golfer. Then pitched onto the green and two putted for bogey. Done. One went through the woods and I saw that it landed on the adjacent tee, and I picked a smart recovery from there as well. A beginning hacker might have tried the hero shot, but LSW was the savior here. That book taught me how to analyze my surroundings. It should be mandatory reading before anyone sets foot on a course.

In fact, golf courses should offer group lessons in course management. How to play golf. Pros spend so much time teaching people how to swing a club. Then you hear "the key to lower scores is the short game". That's a crock of BS. Sure a good short game helps, but teach people how to play the game . Teach people how to identify obstacles on the course. This will save strokes and will save them money in lost golf balls. It will also speed up play on the courses.

[colin007]

@DrvFrShow , do you walk or ride? 3hrs flat would be a more reasonable pace for a single walking 18.

[JonMA1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Ready golf is NEVER irrelevant.    You are essentially saying that poor players can't play fast, and that is hogwash.

Ya think? Tell me how can anyone constantly looking for balls can play fast. You can't play ready golf if you are searching. For ready golf to work you have to be able to drive or walk directly to a ball, be standing over it ready to swing as soon as it's clear. What I see is people losing the groups ahead because they rarely complete the process of hitting bad shots and being able to hit the next one as soon as possible before the group ahead moves on. I am a ready golf advocate but I  don't see people dawdling over balls I see people looking for balls. Your experience may be different.

As a golfer who is used to hitting balls into the woods (a poorer player), I can only say that if the course is crowded I play differently. Errant shot? Hit a provisional, maybe take a quick glance for your first shot (only if there's a good chance of finding it), move on to your provisional. There shouldn't be 5 minutes of looking. Hell, that shouldn't take 2 minutes when the course is crowded. I can easily walk 18 in 3 hrs - even with the errant shots. Now that doesn't mean I've never had to let a fast player in a cart play through, but it's usually pretty easy to put distance between myself and whoever is behind me - until I run into the slow bastards ahead .

In my limited experience, better players are generally faster. But that may be due to the fact that they're better educated about the problem of slow play and understand they should play faster.

[DrvFrShow]

@DrvFrShow, do you walk or ride? 3hrs flat would be a more reasonable pace for a single walking 18.

I'm 62 and have bad feet, bad knees, and wear custom orthotics in my shoes. And like I said, there was not an open hole in front of me. Stuff it.

[ghalfaire]

Your math is wrong.  Nobody says the hole should take 7 or 8 minutes to play, but merely that groups tee off 7 or 8 minutes apart. Since the average course has 4 par 3s and 4 par 5s, the rest (i.e 10 holes) being par 4s, there should be an average of 2 groups on every hole, so if they start 7 or 8 minutes apart, each group should finish in an average of 14 to 16 minutes.  At 15 minutes per hole, that is a 4.5 hours round, not exactly lightning quick!  So, no, the golfers are the problem, not the overcrowded courses.

True, everyone can drive the speed limit, say 65 on the freeway, and if you try this at rush hour, it won't work, because most people aren't able to drive 65mph following the car in front of them (safely) 15-20ft behind them, so they slow down a bit, and a bit more... and a bit more until everybody can finally stay 20ft behind the car in front of them, driving 30mph. The same thing occurs on a golf course: if one group takes an extra 5 minutes on a hole, either because they are looking for balls or because they are totally ineffective in managing their time and their game, the following group will also take 5 minutes more than they should have and if they lose another couple of minutes from the "ideal" pace, things get even worse from there. But the culprits are the golfers, not anything else.

Well I don't really believe my math is wrong and of course it isn't the whole story.  But I believe scheduling tee times for less than 10 min or so apart is asking for slow play because there is no tolerance in the number to allow for someone to look for a ball or make the "walk of shame back to the tee" or for someone on an adjacent fairway who just hit their drive into your fairway to play his ball without causing a back up either on your hole or his hole one or for golfer who shoot 120, ect.  Tee times too close together put too many golfers on the course and make no allowance for any delay so when it happens the entire courses back up.