Short Siding Yourself Isn't (Often) That Bad

[mvmac]

But if you happen to short-side yourself, or if you have the choice, don't worry about it. You're probably fine. If you compare like to like - a 50-foot chip to a 25-foot chip - you should take the shorter chip most of the time, and save the fractions of a stroke that come with it.

Good advice for the next time anyone plays in a scramble 

[Pretzel]

Read the book.

Amateurs suck out of bunkers.

The sad thing is, I'm better out of bunkers than the rough from equal distances in terms of proximity to the hole. Much more spin from the sand for me.

Good point on the short-sided thing though. A lot of people don't realize it's okay to aim to land your chip on the fringe or even in the collar of the rough to kill the speed. Even a putt from a fringe after a short-sided chip may end up closer than a much longer, but not short-sided, chip.

[mdl]

I totally agree that short-siding gets a bad rap. If the green is relatively flat or uphill from where I'm sitting, I'd take a 20 foot chip with 8 feet of green to work with over a 60 foot pitch with 40 feet of green to work with every single time.  That 20 foot chip I'm hoping to hole, and pissed with anything worse than an almost automatic 1-putt.  The 60 foot pitch I'm happy with any pretty high percentage 1-putt opportunity.

Though I will say that to be fair to the anti-short-side feeling, I think that comes from the fact that we've all short sided ourselves where we've got 8 feet of green to work with, and downhill lie, and a super slippery downhill green from where we lie.  In those cases it's often almost literally impossible to get the ball close to the hole at all.  So you tend to remember those and start to develop a bad feeling about short siding.

But yeah, in terms of general hole strategy, on most holes it makes little sense to shift your aim point in order to move your shot zone farther away from the hole so that your edge case misses on the pin side end up on the green.  The caveats are pretty much taken care of by the coloring system from LSW.  If the pin is tucked on the high side of a steep, fast green, especially if the setup off the green won't allow a good attempt at the kind of shot that would have a chance of stopping near the hole if you do leave yourself short-sided (say you'll have a downhill lie in heavy rough), than you should basically treat that not as a "typical" short side miss but more like a hazard or other extreme condition and color it orange or worse.  Then maybe it's like a green with a lake on one side, where you do in fact want to shift your shot zone away from the hole to protect the edge misses from going in the hazard.

[Dave2512]

 It's talking about how sometimes people get unnecessarily ticked at themselves for short-siding themselves. There are plenty of times when you can hit a good shot that's in your Shot Zone but which leaves you short-sided. For example, a 5-iron to a par three. Even if you put your Shot Zone over the green, mostly, there are areas where you might be short-sided. That doesn't mean you should move your Shot Zone away from the green to eliminate the possibility of short-siding yourself.

Oh yeah totally agree with that. Problem is my Shot Zone is fairly large so what I plan and what happens usually not the same thing. But I don't fear short side shots my goal is to get as close the hole as possible period. Also see exactly what you are talking about all the time.

Seems at some point people keeping stats would remember and rely on their odds around the greens and do what they know to be true, don't get stupid get it on the green and putt the darn thing. And as I mentioned I prefer a long putt to a short chip regardless of what that stroke is relative to par. I don't need a double after blading a flop to remember I am not Phil, I remember that to prevent doing something silly.

[Baog]

... my goal is to get as close the hole as possible period.

...And as I mentioned I prefer a long putt to a short chip...

Aren't these statements contradictory?

It seems like your shot selection goal should generally be to give yourself the greatest chance to get the ball on the green in regulation, without being overly concerned with a short-side miss.

[mvmac]

Aren't these statements contradictory?

No, as  the original post says, you're better off putting from even farther away than chipping from closer but that's not the topic of the thread.

[onthehunt526]

On 10/21/2015, 10:19:04, iacas said:

I was going to say what @saevel25 said:

You might, you might not.

The problem with short-siding yourself in that situation is that all too often is that golfers are tempted to play the hero shot or just mis-hit one and flub it and leave themselves another short game shot.

Like the wedge shot from 100 yards that the average player thinks they should hit to five feet, and are disappointed when they hit it to 15, they expect to hit a better shot than they really should from eight feet, so their mind plays tricks on them.

On average, even with 15' of rough and the flag 10' on, a player will average closer to the hole from there than they will from the same rough 50 feet away on the other side of the green. But they'll also be better if they're putting from just about anywhere, too, so that's still the play.

This year, when I got short sided I decided I wouldn't ever commit the cardinal sin and leave another chip, period..  I'd land it on the green somewhere, between me and the hole, if it rolled fifteen feet past, so be it. I actually scored almost a half stroke better in short sided situations than '14...

Erik, 

Do you think that's a better play than trying to get cute and stuff it stone-dead from some thirty feet with 18 feet of gnarly rough in between me and the green edge?

[mvmac]

1 hour ago, onthehunt526 said:

Do you think that's a better play than trying to get cute and stuff it stone-dead from some thirty feet with 18 feet of gnarly rough in between me and the green edge?

Yes.

For a more detailed answer, I'd recommend getting Lowest Score Wins (in case you haven't already) 

[Pretzel]

1 hour ago, onthehunt526 said:

This year, when I got short sided I decided I wouldn't ever commit the cardinal sin and leave another chip, period..  I'd land it on the green somewhere, between me and the hole, if it rolled fifteen feet past, so be it. I actually scored almost a half stroke better in short sided situations than '14...

Well, to answer your question I have another question for you:

If you were standing in the fairway for your approach shot and I offered you a deal, to drop the ball either 15' from the hole or drop it to give yourself a short-sided chip (without needing to even hit your approach shot), which would you prefer? 

My guess is that from 15' you will very rarely take more than 2 strokes to hole out, versus perhaps a scrambling percentage of only 50% or so from a short-sided situation.

[JBailey]

I use a 6 iron from anywhere near the green.  I've chipped in from 30 ft. or more at least 5 times this summer and have not made even one long putt.  So, for me, I'd much rather be just off the green.  I've even tried putting with my 6 iron, but it doesn't work on the green.

Of course, I've got a new putter, so all this may change!

Later,

John

[onthehunt526]

On 12/6/2015, 12:41:20, mvmac said:

Yes.

For a more detailed answer, I'd recommend getting Lowest Score Wins (in case you haven't already) 

Mike,

I've actually read the book 7 times from cover to cover...However it doesn't cover short siding in exact words... In section III, there really isn't much on short siding in there...

[mvmac]

24 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

Mike,

I've actually read the book 7 times from cover to cover...However it doesn't cover short siding in exact words... In section III, there really isn't much on short siding in there...

Not specifically (without looking at the book) but I'm thinking of the overall theme of the book, the importance of getting the ball on the green in the least amount of strokes possible and Decision Maps. The rough you described would be a medium shade.

[iacas]

7 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

Mike,

I've actually read the book 7 times from cover to cover...However it doesn't cover short siding in exact words... In section III, there really isn't much on short siding in there...

Correct, it doesn't mention short-siding yourself, except to say that if you short-sided yourself maybe you were going at the flag more than you should have.

This thread is mostly to cover those times when you were playing for #DeadCenter (the smart target, anyway) but you find yourself short-sided. A lot of people will beat themselves up for it, because they've heard "short-siding yourself is bad." If you're not on the PGA Tour, it's generally not too bad. Then those people will try to play a stupid shot to "recover." Even an average shot that gets you to 10 feet is probably better than you'd have done from the rough on the "not-short-sided" side of the green.

[stealthhwk]

I have found this to be very true last couple of weeks. Reading it in lsw was a real positive thing for me. I often miss greens just because Im paranoid about missing. Thanks to this tip in lsw, Im gonna be a lot less stressed. With my new more aggressive style, Ive found that I can get up and down for par quite a bit as long as I get it within 20 yards. Takes some pressure off my game for sure. And at my courses its better to be short than long so this kind of adds a new dimension to my game. Ie: If I know I might go over and get into trouble, then I can plan to land just on or be a little short. When I think like that Im staying away from shaded areas beyond the green but still advancing my ball toward the hole.

[Howling Coyote]

On October 21, 2015 at 6:22 PM, iacas said:

If you were given the choice between a 50-foot putt or a 20-foot putt, which would you choose?

Iaccas

I don't understand what you mean by short siding yourself?

On October 22, 2015 at 11:29 AM, Dave2512 said:

 my goal is to get as close the hole as possible period.

My goal is to get the ball to the bottom of the cup.

[iacas]

20 minutes ago, Howling Coyote said:

I don't understand what you mean by short siding yourself?

It means missing the green on the side where the flag is.

So if the hole is cut on the right side, it means missing the green on the right hand side instead of on the left hand side.

[Club Rat]

1 hour ago, Howling Coyote said:

I don't understand what you mean by short siding yourself?

It also is situations when a shot ends in areas - when the next shot can be a high degree of difficulty due to ruff, sand, mounds, uphill, downhill lies to a pin which is near/close to the side of the green. The term - not having much green to work with, is also commonly used in similar situations.

When a player slightly misses a green with the pin near the side they miss and they have options to putt or chip on fairway cut with no obstacles, they would not be "short-sided"

[Rainmaker]

I definitely agree with this.  I never really worried to much about short siding myself or not because I figured I'd have to know more about the green, really, to know whether it mattered or not . .and where I play it almost never matters.  I would always prefer to putt vs chip - but if I'm "short sided" that *usually* means an easier chip for me . .or maybe I can even putt it, etc. 

 

Edit . .if I'm 20 yards away, or something, I'd rather more room between the fringe and the pin than less, though.  But that's usually not the case.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Rainmaker