Changes to Handicap System for 2016 Released

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Lihu said:

So, does that kind of mean that other people can sort of vouch for your handicap?

You don't have to sign scorecards right now is all I'm saying.  The rule change just says you have to play with someone who can vouch for your score. Doesn't say you need to get their signature.  As I said above, I think it's mostly for sandbagger types.

[Lihu]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

You don't have to sign scorecards right now is all I'm saying.  The rule change just says you have to play with someone who can vouch for your score. Doesn't say you need to get their signature.  As I said above, I think it's mostly for sandbagger types.

That makes sense. Most people end up playing with the same group of people anyway.

[RFKFREAK]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

These are not the same thing at all.

The 2016 changes for both CONGU and USGA handicaps are taking place in 2016. Then, in 2018, they're planning to join them.

They're two different topics that simply have "handicapping" in common.

I don't know if this is OT or if there's another thread about this but I'm really not a fan of not posting scores when playing alone.  I play with my friends, I play with strangers, and at times I play alone.  In each instance where I post a score, I post what it was regardless of whether I played with someone or not.  I'm also not sure how enforceable it'd be or do they expect people to adhere to it based on the honor system. 

[WUTiger]

Maybe our club could have a January luncheon at which a local attorney explains what all this means.

[RFKFREAK]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

Yet it still puts those of us who want to obey the rules of golf, including handicap rules in a bind. I get their purpose, yet in the end it makes me feel like I am cheating because it's a rule as a golfer I shouldn't break. 

I also don't want a scenario where I end up in a tournament and someone makes a stink about something and they try to validate my scores and I have admit I posted 80% of my scores from when I played alone. 

In the end I'll just be posting about 15% of my scores then. 

Yup, then there's this issue for people who want to strictly adhere to the Rules of Golf. 

[Braivo]

Here's the thing, even when I am not playing alone I am usually playing with guys who don't really follow the rules of golf. They allow gimmes and mulligans, etc. I will play by the rules and keep my own score, they have no idea what I am posting.

So they will mark my score down per "their" rules and I keep my own score per the actual rules of golf. Then I go home and post my score to GHIN, they have no idea. I couldn't have them "verify" my score even if I wanted to. 

I don't see how this is any better than playing alone and posting my score. 

As far as enforcement, I know there is a spot in GHIN to enter playing partners, will it simply not allow a score to be posted if you don't have a partner included? 

I follow the rules meticulously. So I will no longer post scores played alone, I feel this will create a HI that is a poor reflection of my actual abilities as only 20-30% of my rounds are played with others. 

[newtogolf]

18 hours ago, saevel25 said:

This has to be on the most idiotic rule changes I have seen in a long time for the USGA. 

First, it basically states that the USGA can't trust a golfer to play by the rules of golf, which is just sad. 

Second, I contest that in some situations when a golfer plays with other people who don't play by the rules of golf or do not even know majority of the rules of golf is just the same as that golfer playing by himself. How can those who play with him attest his score if they don't know the rules of golf themselves.

Also, how do they plan to police this? A lot of players just plug in their scores through a computer. I don't see a requirement for a scorecard that is signed and attested must be submitted. Unless the golf courses or regional golf associations start keeping actual scorecard records that showed that you played with another person and that person can attest your score then there is no way to police this rule.

For most this will be difficult to police but my club requires we submit our score cards for review for at least 75% of the rounds we post at our home course.

[ghalfaire]

17 hours ago, iacas said:

Guys, seriously… This is probably to stop those who enter scores for which they have no playing partners and who then, somehow, shoot 12 strokes better than their average in a tournament or when money is on the line.

Nobody's going to care much if you enter your rounds in just as you have been doing. Like some of you have said: how are they going to enforce it? They probably won't… unless you're getting a reputation as a sandbagger.

I believe it is more likely aimed at the ones who play alone and somehow or another shoot 12 strokes worse than in a tournament.

[Elmer]

25 minutes ago, ghalfaire said:

I believe it is more likely aimed at the ones who play alone and somehow or another shoot 12 strokes worse than in a tournament.

But yet it punishes those of use who play 1/2 our rounds alone.
It punishes those of us who are honest enough to admit that the rounds we play alone are a a few strokes worse than when playing with or against someone.

I  use the honor system when hitting out of a bunker, or a crappy lie.
I use the honor system when I write down my score on my card
I used the honor system when I enter my score into the GHIN System on my computer at home,

but I can not be trusted to use the honor system when playing alone.

Foolish!!!

 

[Fourputt]

20 hours ago, kpaulhus said:

Whelp I will just keep all my scores in the US Handicap system, and post my "group" scores in GHIN. I like tracking my stats and I think it is dumb they are basically eliminating the honors system. 

Stat tracking has little or nothing to do with handicap anyway.  I don't see a reason for connecting them in any official way.  You can still track your stats from every round as you always have.

15 hours ago, saevel25 said:

Yet it still puts those of us who want to obey the rules of golf, including handicap rules in a bind. I get their purpose, yet in the end it makes me feel like I am cheating because it's a rule as a golfer I shouldn't break. 

I also don't want a scenario where I end up in a tournament and someone makes a stink about something and they try to validate my scores and I have admit I posted 80% of my scores from when I played alone. 

In the end I'll just be posting about 15% of my scores then. 

Why?  You post qualifying rounds and don't post those which don't qualify.  The spreads or averages shouldn't be significantly different.

14 hours ago, WUTiger said:

Maybe our club could have a January luncheon at which a local attorney explains what all this means.

Nothing complicated about it.  If you play alone, don't post.  If you play with others, post.  Pretty simple.

1 hour ago, Elmer said:

But yet it punishes those of use who play 1/2 our rounds alone.
It punishes those of us who are honest enough to admit that the rounds we play alone are a a few strokes worse than when playing with or against someone.

I  use the honor system when hitting out of a bunker, or a crappy lie.
I use the honor system when I write down my score on my card
I used the honor system when I enter my score into the GHIN System on my computer at home,

but I can not be trusted to use the honor system when playing alone.

Foolish!!!

 

It adds a level of peer review, however small that may be at times.  Even most cheaters don't want to be caught out when cheating (even by other cheaters), so they might not do the same things when others are within viewing distance of their play.  It's certainly no guarantee, but then what is?  The only solution that might be more effective would be to limit official handicap tracking to club members when playing with other club members, and that would eliminate most public course players.

Keep in mind that this is only slightly different from what the handicap system required about 20 years ago.  In the early 90's and before, you had to have every returned scorecard signed and attested to by someone you played with.  Playing alone was not an option for handicap purposes, because all cards posted for handicap were reviewed and entered by your organization's handicap committee.  If I showed up at the course as a single and got paired with strangers, I had to ask one of those strangers to sign my card after the round so I could return it.  Even that wasn't really a big deal.  The new policy is certainly more lax than that.

[Grumpter]

I don't like the changes one bit as I play a decent number of rounds as a single. I don't know of many people willing to attest to my scores when I tee off at 5:30am so I can play 9 holes before work. What if I am playing with complete hacks that don't record scores? About 60+% of my rounds are played where I am paired up with people I don't know.

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central-blog/usga-releases-changes-handicap-system/

• Playing alone and necessary peer review: To further support the key system premise of peer review, scores made while playing alone will no longer be acceptable for handicap purposes. This change underscores the importance of providing full and accurate information regarding a player’s potential scoring ability, and the ability of other players to form a reasonable basis for supporting or disputing a posted score. (Section 5-1: Acceptability of Scores)

[saevel25]

6 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Why?  You post qualifying rounds and don't post those which don't qualify.  The spreads or averages shouldn't be significantly different.

Lets say I play 30 rounds of golf. I play a lot of golf alone. Especially early and end of the year, and after work hours when everyone else is playing in leagues that I can't join in on. I would easily say 80% of my rounds are played a lone. That mans I can only count 6 rounds. Which brings in more variance into my handicap. Like any statistic you get a better average the more you have. 

So it could be significant. Lets say of those 6 rounds all of them were in my top 75% highest scores. That means, taking my one differential would, per USGA for 6 rounds. I would be much higher than taking 10 out of 20. Also, what if I shoot a career round. Maybe I shoot my first under par round ever. That means I am stuck with a -1 handicap because I can't use the other 14 previous rounds that I played by the rules of golf. 

Whatever, I guess I am going to have only a handful of rounds for my handicap next year. 

 

[iacas]

22 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

So it could be significant. Lets say of those 6 rounds all of them were in my top 75% highest scores. That means, taking my one differential would, per USGA for 6 rounds. I would be much higher than taking 10 out of 20. Also, what if I shoot a career round. Maybe I shoot my first under par round ever. That means I am stuck with a -1 handicap because I can't use the other 14 previous rounds that I played by the rules of golf.

Matt, c'mon, enough of the melodrama.

You played six rounds WITH ME this year, AFAIK. And you're still counting 10 of your last 20. The handicap system doesn't stop and start at the end of each year, resetting in between.

You play more than six (probably more than 20) times with other people.

And, like I already said, who is going to stop you from turning in a round when you didn't play with someone? I think this is aimed at sandbaggers, not core golfers who happen to play alone a lot.

[newtogolf]

If they don't require signed score cards, will they require you to identify who you're playing partners were so if there's a question about a posted score they can verify it?   I see little value in not allowing those playing alone to post scores for handicap purposes if the verification system is so weak it's virtually useless in thwarting sandbaggers. 

Conversely I don't want to be on the hook to verify a score with a stranger or club member I was randomly paired with who misrepresented their score.   I guess this will all have to get sorted out as there is a lot of ambiguity and potential for confrontations.

[Braivo]

8 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

If they don't require signed score cards, will they require you to identify who you're playing partners were so if there's a question about a posted score they can verify it?   I see little value in not allowing those playing alone to post scores for handicap purposes if the verification system is so weak it's virtually useless in thwarting sandbaggers. 

Conversely I don't want to be on the hook to verify a score with a stranger or club member I was randomly paired with who misrepresented their score.   I guess this will all have to get sorted out as there is a lot of ambiguity and potential for confrontations.

Perhaps this is a move back toward handicaps being mostly for club members instead of public course golfers. Maybe they've had a lot of public course golfers join handicapped events and win, unable to verify their HI based on rounds played alone. 

IMO you have to go completely one way or the other. Either let anyone post any round, alone or not. Or require that rounds can only be posted when played with other players who are also tracking their score for HI purposes. 

FWIW, I looked at my posted scores for this year, my first year tracking an index. I posted 21 rounds, 11 of which were played alone. Of those 10 where I played with someone else, only 2 were in a group of other players that were playing 100% by the Rules of Golf and tracking their score for HI in a way that could be verified. 

[Lihu]

17 hours ago, saevel25 said:

In the end I'll just be posting about 15% of my scores then. 

What's wrong with that?

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Braivo said:

IMO you have to go completely one way or the other. Either let anyone post any round, alone or not. Or require that rounds can only be posted when played with other players who are also tracking their score for HI purposes.

Okay, so they're moving toward the second.

I'm curious, for those of you super opposed to this, what % of the rounds played by those with handicaps in the U.S. you think are played solo.

Cuz it's probably a very small number, generally speaking.

[Braivo]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

Okay, so they're moving toward the second.

I'm curious, for those of you super opposed to this, what % of the rounds played by those with handicaps in the U.S. you think are played solo.

Cuz it's probably a very small number, generally speaking.

Moving back to a peer-reviewed system is not bad IMO, despite it hurting my ability to post more rounds. However, I mostly track my HI to measure my performance. I can still do this unofficially with an app and get the same feedback. 

Yes, likely very small number are played alone. We are a biased group of hardcore golfers on this site. Most people tracking a HI, my guess is, play with their weekly groups at their home clubs. Most recreational golfers don't have a HI and don't play by the RoG. 

The two rounds I posted this year that were played with other golfers tracking their HI were in fact regulars at my home club that play every Saturday and Wednesday.