World Handicap System Now Out (2020)

[klineka]

12 minutes ago, gbogey said:

Don't care about the handicap impact - it was one of my best rounds on a very tough golf course.  Feels like the round was slightly tainted.

If you don't care about the handicap impact then why does the fact that a number of other golfers also played well on that course that day make your great round feel slightly tainted?

[gbogey]

Because according to the PCC adjustment, the course was playing easier that day.  Think about the reverse - if you had an extremely good score for your game and the next day the PCC was +2, wouldn't that make you feel better about your round?

[iacas]

1 hour ago, gbogey said:

Still feel a little cheated by the -1 PCC.  Unless there were friendly pins that I didn't notice, the course was playing no easier than usual that day.  Don't care about the handicap impact - it was one of my best rounds on a very tough golf course.  Feels like the round was slightly tainted.

41 minutes ago, gbogey said:

Because according to the PCC adjustment, the course was playing easier that day.  Think about the reverse - if you had an extremely good score for your game and the next day the PCC was +2, wouldn't that make you feel better about your round?

The scores were lower that day, yeah.

Maybe the tees were up from where they should have been, where the course was rated. Maybe if this course sees this a lot, they'll get re-rated.

It's just an algorithm.

You had one of your best rounds… on a day when the course was playing "easier" per the PCC. This feels right, doesn't it?

[gbogey]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

You had one of your best rounds… on a day when the course was playing "easier" per the PCC. This feels right, doesn't it?

Not really but the devil is in the details.  Played the same course 3 days in a row.  Setup and turf conditions were the same each day (or at least appeared to be so). Day One was slightly windier than average, Day Two was much much windier than average, Day Three was between the others.  I had my personal best for this course on days one and three (day two was a disaster but not because of the wind).  Day three had a -1 PCC.  Puzzling, that's all.  Makes one wonder if the PCC adjustment is ahead of its time. 

[Double Mocha Man]

3 minutes ago, gbogey said:

Not really but the devil is in the details.  Played the same course 3 days in a row.  Setup and turf conditions were the same each day (or at least appeared to be so). Day One was slightly windier than average, Day Two was much much windier than average, Day Three was between the others.  I had my personal best for this course on days one and three (day two was a disaster but not because of the wind).  Day three had a -1 PCC.  Puzzling, that's all.  Makes one wonder if the PCC adjustment is ahead of its time. 

Bottom line... it really has little to do with the weather... wind.  Though that affects scores.  On the day you scored well it just happened that others, who recorded their scores that day on that course, played well, too.  Kinda like "strokes gained"... a moving target from day to day based upon your competition.

[iacas]

50 minutes ago, gbogey said:

Not really but the devil is in the details.  Played the same course 3 days in a row.  Setup and turf conditions were the same each day (or at least appeared to be so). Day One was slightly windier than average, Day Two was much much windier than average, Day Three was between the others.  I had my personal best for this course on days one and three (day two was a disaster but not because of the wind).  Day three had a -1 PCC.  Puzzling, that's all.  Makes one wonder if the PCC adjustment is ahead of its time. 

You're getting caught up in the wrong stuff.

The PCC isn't "ahead of its time." In fact, it's intentionally "diluted" or "slowed down" early on. It's being applied at a diminished rate right now, in any direction.

It's just an algorithm. Enough people played better - they posted better scores - that one day.

That's all there is to it.

Oftentimes it'll be the "weather," but sometimes maybe the holes will be in bowls, or cut in positions where it's easier to get close or make more putts. Or sometimes the ball will fly a bit farther. Or wind blows downwind on the longer holes. Or a bunch of people just play well on one day.

There's no way of knowing. It's just an algorithm.

[nicolas wieder]

I love the new system. much easier to think about the max net bogey limit in registering scores. Like the frequent updates, especially when playing money games. much easier to see everyones true handicap and recent scores. Also more fun for my wife when we play, or acutally anyone who doesn't have the patience for the old system. She never was interested in posting and improving her handicap previously because there was always a range of equitable scoring maximum depending on your base handicap. now she is excited about posting and getting better. It's been a real positive foe my golfing life. on an added note, when I played in ireland last year it was impossible to figure true course handicaps. I think it will be easier now if I go back again. 

[dennyjones]

I realize this conversation has steered toward PCC  but I have a question and I'm sure it's been answered somewhere on the forum but can't find it right now.     If it's in the wrong forum/thread, please move it.   Before the new handicap system I was oblivious to course handicap.   There was never really a need for me to keep a handicap because the guys I play with all shoot about the same on any given day.  My question, How common is it to shoot better than your course handicap?   I'd assume it doesn't happen often.   Today was the first time this year I beat my course handicap but I did it several times last year.   

[iacas]

34 minutes ago, dennyjones said:

I realize this conversation has steered toward PCC  but I have a question and I'm sure it's been answered somewhere on the forum but can't find it right now.     If it's in the wrong forum/thread, please move it.   Before the new handicap system I was oblivious to course handicap.   There was never really a need for me to keep a handicap because the guys I play with all shoot about the same on any given day.  My question, How common is it to shoot better than your course handicap?   I'd assume it doesn't happen often.   Today was the first time this year I beat my course handicap but I did it several times last year.   

Well, consider that you count 8 of 20 scores. That's 40%, and those 8 scores average your course handicap.

So, if they're distributed pretty evenly, about half of those will be above your course handicap, and half will be below.

So, about 20% of the time.

Of course, it's possible to have your eight scores (relative to your course handicap) work out to this:

• -0.1, -0.1, -0.1, -0.1, -0.1, -0.1, -0.1, +0.7

The inverse is also possible.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, dennyjones said:

I realize this conversation has steered toward PCC  but I have a question and I'm sure it's been answered somewhere on the forum but can't find it right now.     If it's in the wrong forum/thread, please move it.   Before the new handicap system I was oblivious to course handicap.   There was never really a need for me to keep a handicap because the guys I play with all shoot about the same on any given day.  My question, How common is it to shoot better than your course handicap?   I'd assume it doesn't happen often.   Today was the first time this year I beat my course handicap but I did it several times last year.   

I'll build on what @iacas has already said.  Last year, you "beat your handicap" if your net score (Score - Handicap) was lower than the Course Rating.  With the changes, now you've "beat your handicap" if your net score is Par or better.  To me, this is an improvement in the was Course Handicap is calculated, so that "net par" is always a good score.

[Southern by Choice]

On 11/15/2019 at 5:05 PM, reidsou said:

Any thoughts on dropping Tournament score tracking and handicap reduction for two exceptional tournament scores 3.0+ strokes better than index?

To be replaced by Exceptional Score Reduction 7.0+ strokes better than index. 

My thought is that there will be fewer reductions, and the 7.0 target makes sandbagging easier. Does anyone know the reasons behind the change? I'm assuming it's because the new system is easier to implement and understand, not statistically better. 

There must be a lot of sand baggers out there that the WHS was trying to "catch," but I’m a struggling golfer who has been caught in a system that only seems to hurt me.

 

My HI was up to 38 early this year.  I took a series of lessons and had a few very good rounds.  BOOM! Exceptional, Score Reduction applied to not just THESE rounds, but to all of the previous revision scores.  In my case, an ESR of -3.  My index dropped like a rock, down to 24.  I was excited, but that didn’t really represent my ability...  I continued to play and my scores bumped up and down as I tried to find my new normal.  As scores went up, the SOFT CAP was applied, reducing my index's upward movement by 50%.  And the HARD CAP is also in place, so if I get in the doldrums again, my handicap index can never go higher than +5 from my previous 12-month low!  
 

My good friend has been on a similar journey of rapid improvement followed by inconsistent scores.  We are playing in a tournament together on Monday, and neither of us believes our current HI is realistically representative of our expected ability.  Again I ask—are there that many cheaters out there, that so many restrictions were built into the WHS?  

[nicolas wieder]

"Again I ask—are there that many cheaters out there, that so many restrictions were built into the WHS? "

it is frustrating. My index went down 3 points after watching Padraig Harrington Twitter lessons and now I've plateaued a little and its a real bear playing to my index.  

I will say though that I've found the cheating actually goes the other way. People cheat themselves. I've seen so many turn a bad playing round into a 'practice round' or give themselves shots and record their scores. A lot of people I've seen can never play to their index because they don't actually record all their scores. If they did, I think their index would be at least 1-2 strokes higher. 

[DaveP043]

2 hours ago, Southern by Choice said:

There must be a lot of sand baggers out there that the WHS was trying to "catch," but I’m a struggling golfer who has been caught in a system that only seems to hurt me.

 

My HI was up to 38 early this year.  I took a series of lessons and had a few very good rounds.  BOOM! Exceptional, Score Reduction applied to not just THESE rounds, but to all of the previous revision scores.  In my case, an ESR of -3.  My index dropped like a rock, down to 24.  I was excited, but that didn’t really represent my ability...  I continued to play and my scores bumped up and down as I tried to find my new normal.  As scores went up, the SOFT CAP was applied, reducing my index's upward movement by 50%.  And the HARD CAP is also in place, so if I get in the doldrums again, my handicap index can never go higher than +5 from my previous 12-month low!  
 

My good friend has been on a similar journey of rapid improvement followed by inconsistent scores.  We are playing in a tournament together on Monday, and neither of us believes our current HI is realistically representative of our expected ability.  Again I ask—are there that many cheaters out there, that so many restrictions were built into the WHS?  

I think its fair to ask, what scores did you shoot to earn the ESR?  It must have been well below your current Handicap Index, or else it wouldn't have kicked in.  And since you shot those really good scores, you've shown that you have the potential to shoot them again.  You don't get a ESR of -3 without at least 2 really good scores, since the max reduction for a single good score is -2 (for a Differential 10 strokes or more below your current Handicap Index).  I know its tough to maintain a new and improved level of play, but you CAN do it.  Congratulations on making the improvements!

[Southern by Choice]

Fair question, for sure.  I just looked it up, and even I'M impressed!  I shot eight scores in the 90's within a one-month period—after not having broken 100 for nearly a year.  Now I’m doing what everyone else has to do:  scramble to actually play to the new lower handicap!

 

Thank you for the kind words of encouragement.  I still think it’s strange that the system "believes" you while your scores drop (ESR), but doesn’t "believe" you when the scores go up (Soft Cap and Hard Cap).  Does that make sense?

[iacas]

13 minutes ago, Southern by Choice said:

Thank you for the kind words of encouragement.  I still think it’s strange that the system "believes" you while your scores drop (ESR), but doesn’t "believe" you when the scores go up (Soft Cap and Hard Cap).  Does that make sense?

It's not about "believing" you. The caps are for those who practice "handicap management."

And there can be exceptions made, for example. I heard an example of a guy who was a five handicap but was in a bad car accident. He wanted to play in his club championship and some other local events in his golf association, and they decided that they could see how he played for a few weeks before the club championship and assign his handicap that way.

[Southern by Choice]

I just wanted to squawk a little bit!  Digging into the details of the WHS is a bit like looking at legislation that has passed:  sometimes it’s surprising what’s in there!

 

i know of the exceptions to the rules, and it’s good that they exist for people who have real health issues or temporary setbacks, like the one you mention.  (I’m a member of my club's Handicap Committee, and I’m glad we haven’t had a member who needed these exemptions—yet.)

 

Thanks for your response.  It’s nice to chat about a game I love so much with someone with your knowledge and experience.

[DeadMan]

I have a question about PCC that I couldn't find in the manual itself. Here's the situation: my men's club typically doesn't post scores to GHIN until a few days after a tournament. What impact would this have on PCC? I know that individuals should post their scores on the same day they played to make sure the PCC calculation is accurate. I'd imagine that a group of 40+ scores would be the same way. In fact, given that's so many scores, my impression is that it is very important to have any tournament scores posted the same day.

I want to make sure I understand this before I raise it as an issue. Posting these scores on the same day can take a lot of work from the club.

[reidsou]

47 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

I have a question about PCC that I couldn't find in the manual itself. Here's the situation: my men's club typically doesn't post scores to GHIN until a few days after a tournament. What impact would this have on PCC? I know that individuals should post their scores on the same day they played to make sure the PCC calculation is accurate. I'd imagine that a group of 40+ scores would be the same way. In fact, given that's so many scores, my impression is that it is very important to have any tournament scores posted the same day.

I want to make sure I understand this before I raise it as an issue. Posting these scores on the same day can take a lot of work from the club.

The impact of not posting the club scores the same day is that the PCC for that day will be less statistically accurate. 

My personal opinion is if it's a lot of work don't bother. PCC is almost always 0 anyway. On the few days it is not, the other posted scores will likely reflect that. 

On 5/28/2020 at 11:56 AM, Southern by Choice said:

Fair question, for sure.  I just looked it up, and even I'M impressed!  I shot eight scores in the 90's within a one-month period—after not having broken 100 for nearly a year.  Now I’m doing what everyone else has to do:  scramble to actually play to the new lower handicap!

 

Thank you for the kind words of encouragement.  I still think it’s strange that the system "believes" you while your scores drop (ESR), but doesn’t "believe" you when the scores go up (Soft Cap and Hard Cap).  Does that make sense?

A little jealous: I would love to get an ESR! Would mean I played really well. 

Edited June 18, 2020 by reidsou
Unrelated topics accidentally included in the same post.