Rule Prohibiting Caddies/Partners from Lining up Players

[rkim291968]

Yes, for me.  Golf is an individual sport for the most part.  Lining up is an integral part of putting which should be carried out by a player.

[iacas]

BTW, the thought occurs to me right now as I answer some of the posts that many of you haven't caddied for your kid in US Kids Golf tournaments. My god… the parents in these things line up their kids ALL… THE… TIME. It takes forever, and these kids seem completely incapable of lining themselves up.

I've taught my kid to line up properly, and we work on that occasionally on the range. She's also one of the fastest players in USKG tournaments.

This is, to me, almost as much or more about pace of play as well as how dumb you look needing someone else to perform a simple thing like lining yourself up.

5 hours ago, kpaulhus said:

I voted "no" before I read the part about taking their stance. In my opinion I can help someone read a putt, but once they address the ball it's all on them. 

You can change your vote. Click "Show Vote Options" and re-vote.

4 hours ago, Lihu said:

If they take their stance and get that "help" from a caddie or partner, but have not made their stroke yet it seems like the caddie or partner would have to move before they make their stroke anyway and this is potentially detracting from any of the "help" they got aligning the putt? Basically, anyone needing help with that kind of gross alignment is more likely to miss the putt anyway?

That's already legal as someone else pointed out.

4 hours ago, No Mulligans said:

I voted no.  I think it's an unnecessary rule.  I just don't think there is any benefit in having someone help you line up unless you're a beginner.  Certainly PGA pros don't really benefit from being helped.  No need to make a rule where one is not needed.

LPGA Tour pros do it. PGA Tour pros do it. It looks stupid and wastes time. The latter is the primary concern for me.

4 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

I don't believe that many (any?) of the pros whose caddies we see doing this are actually relying on them to line them up, but rather just as one extra little bit of psychological assistance.

I've seen players get called off a shot by their caddie, so no, I think you're wrong about that.

Most of the time I'd agree that it seems like "one extra little bit," but:

• If it's unimportant, then it's not a big deal to disallow it, right?
• It wastes time.

4 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

I'll admit, I'd prefer they didn't resort to that, but I'd rather that than some rinky dink penalty being applied because some player was a little too quick to place his putter behind the ball for a crucial putt at the end of a major - he got nervous and forgot to wait until his caddy sidestepped 12" and lost his chance at the US Open because of it.

That penalty could be applied now if the caddie was "a little too quick to start his stroke for a crucial putt at the end of a major - he got nervous and forgot to wait until his caddy sidestepped 12" and lost his chance at the US Open because of it."

The rule change just moves up the time when the caddie can't be standing back there saying "a little to the left… No, a little right now." from when the stroke begins to when the player steps up to the putt.

2 hours ago, David in FL said:

No.  I think that's a slippery slope.  

The caddie is acknowledged as the equivalent of the player in too many aspects of the rules.  I see no reason to break out that one particular aspect of the team....

How do you see it as a slippery slope?

They can't be there when the player is making the stroke. This just moves the exact same requirement (not to stand on the extension of their line) up by ten seconds.

2 hours ago, Patch said:

I voted no because there are already too many rules in the game of golf.

Besides, the player, on their own still has to make the stroke to hole out. 

This changes one rule. It does not add any rules.

That the player still has to make the stroke is fine. I'm suggesting they also take on the responsibility of lining themselves up all by themselves.

[ay33660]

I voted YES.

But I am one of those outsiders that would like to see ALL caddies banned from the professional game. This way when the Pros game goes sideways there is no one bring them back from the brink.

Also I would like to see all pros push or carry their own bags.

I know this would never happen but just my own opinion.

 

 

 

[saevel25]

4 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

Yup ... Rickie Fowler is the most prominent player I've seen doing this.

It looks a little lame, but whats worse?  Seeing his caddy stand behind him for a half a second before he pulls the trigger, or watching Phils caddy line up every putt from every angle, including standing over it with a wedge in his hand like he's about to hit it sometimes?

Phil was the first person to come to mind when I looked at the rule. 

I think the rule is fine. I think the more players have to do the better. Golf is an individual sport. The caddies already do a lot for the golfers. I think the caddies should be limited to giving out yardages, help on club selection, and knowing the rules if they do. After that the rest needs to be all the golfer. 

I voted yes. 

[SavvySwede]

31 minutes ago, iacas said:

That the player still has to make the stroke is fine. I'm suggesting they also take on the responsibility of lining themselves up all by themselves.

How would you rank "aim" as a SV skill? Just curious because green reading is ranked highly but most people take no issue with caddies doing that for their players. (it also contributes to slow play on Tour)

[Golfingdad]

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

BTW, the thought occurs to me right now as I answer some of the posts that many of you haven't caddied for your kid in US Kids Golf tournaments. My god… the parents in these things line up their kids ALL… THE… TIME. It takes forever, and these kids seem completely incapable of lining themselves up.

Aha, you are correct.  In fact, I hadn't even considered it.  I'm picturing only professionals and high level amateurs as being the ones out there with caddies.

16 minutes ago, iacas said:

LPGA Tour pros do it. PGA Tour pros do it. It looks stupid and wastes time. The latter is the primary concern for me.

From your POV, I'm sure that's right (parents and kids), but I don't see it as really a waste of time for the pros.  Just looks stupid is all. :)

32 minutes ago, iacas said:

If it's unimportant, then it's not a big deal to disallow it, right?

Yes.  In fact, I nearly said exactly this on one of my previous posts.  I'm closer to "on the fence" on the idea than anything else - i just lean a little on the opposite side. ;)

37 minutes ago, iacas said:

That penalty could be applied now if the caddie was "a little too quick to start his stroke for a crucial putt at the end of a major - he got nervous and forgot to wait until his caddy sidestepped 12" and lost his chance at the US Open because of it."

Good point, although I might counter that the beginning of a swing is a lot more easily definable than the beginning of addressing the ball.  Meaning, it would take more of a brain fart for a caddy to not get out of the way in time of a swing than it would address.  But this is a very minor point.

All in all, I think I'd still say no, but on a scale of 0 to 100, with 0 being "you HAVE to change the rule" and 100 being "nooooooooo!!!!!! leave it alone", I'm sitting somewhere between 50 and 52. ;)

[iacas]

30 minutes ago, SavvySwede said:

How would you rank "aim" as a SV skill? Just curious because green reading is ranked highly but most people take no issue with caddies doing that for their players. (it also contributes of slow play on Tour)

I wouldn't break it out as a separate skill. It's one of the three keys to putting.

It matters more on short putts, while distance control matters more on longer putts.

[klund]

I guess this rule would only be applicable to your example of kids with parent caddies and high level tournament players. How many % of the golfers in the world is this?

In most of the other threads i read the consensus is usually the rules are good as they are.

I voted no.

[Lihu]

5 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

As it stands now, the caddie or partner can stand behind the player, help the player align their feet and/or clubface, and is only required to step away before the player makes a stroke, and that seems to be what you're describing.  What @iacas is proposing is that the caddie must not stand behind the player while the player is aligning him(or her)self, the player must accomplish that alignment all on their own.

Thanks, I suppose it's a non-verbal confirmation that they agree with the line being setup. . .

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, klund said:

I guess this rule would only be applicable to your example of kids with parent caddies and high level tournament players. How many % of the golfers in the world is this?

Partners, too. So it could affect everyone.

The Rules are generally good, IMO. But just as I support the change to the definition of "stroke" that prohibits anchoring, I think this would be a good change too.

1 minute ago, Lihu said:

Thanks, I suppose it's a non-verbal confirmation that they agree with the line being setup. . .

Huh? It's often not non-verbal. Even when it's good the caddie will often say "good" and step out.

[Lihu]

Just now, iacas said:

Partners, too. So it could affect everyone.

The Rules are generally good, IMO. But just as I support the change to the definition of "stroke" that prohibits anchoring, I think this would be a good change too.

Huh? It's often not non-verbal. Even when it's good the caddie will often say "good" and step out.

Okay then, fully agree that this would be a good change. . .

[klund]

How often have you seen this happen with partners? The rule would be pointed at what 0.1% of the golfers if that. You could mention the anchoring rule but i think that would be a higher %. But that discussion is different as that has to do with the stroke not information.

For me it would not affect me but if the main reason is pace of play and this is regarding the pro ranks i don't believe this is the reason for their ridiculous round times! Penalty's and more penalty's for slow play is the way to solve that.

[iacas]

31 minutes ago, klund said:

How often have you seen this happen with partners? The rule would be pointed at what 0.1% of the golfers if that. You could mention the anchoring rule but i think that would be a higher %. But that discussion is different as that has to do with the stroke not information.

You seem to have missed the part where I talked about US Kids Golf tournaments.

In other words, it targets more golfers than those on the LPGA/PGA Tours.

[klund]

No i did not miss that part. I don´t have any experience in that which is why i did not want to discuss it.

So i will take your word for it that almost everyone does it there and that it is a huge issue which need a change of the Rules of Golf because i think you agree that its not a global golf issue as we have 2 scenarios where this is a issue. Kids tournaments with strange over ambitious parents and top level tournament players. 

A easier solution would be to ban the caddies for those tournaments where this is a real issue.

My solution for slow play in the pro ranges is still the same.

[Golfingdad]

5 minutes ago, klund said:

No i did not miss that part. I don´t have any experience in that which is why i did not want to discuss it.

So i will take your word for it that almost everyone does it there and that it is a huge issue which need a change of the Rules of Golf because i think you agree that its not a global golf issue as we have 2 scenarios where this is a issue. Kids tournaments with strange over ambitious parents and top level tournament players. 

A easier solution would be to ban the caddies for those tournaments where this is a real issue.

My solution for slow play in the pro ranges is still the same.

Not sure if that's necessarily easier, but it does bring up a question for me:. Could they make a COC for the kids tour to the same effect?  Prohibiting caddies from standing on players line after address?

[Patch]

Just thinking about all the times I have golfed at courses that requires a caddy be used. How that caddy in addition to helping me read unfamiliar greens, has given me advice on how to play other shots from the tee to the green.  Has helped me pick the right club based on what he/she knew about my game. 

If a caddy is not allowed to help on the green, should they not also  give advice in other areas of one's golf game? If a course requires a caddy, and the caddy gives advice, does the golfer not count their score due to a new rule chnge? Do I pay the extra bucks  to have another person just carry my bag? 

Nope, keep the rule as it is. Let the caddy earn their pay. 

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Golfingdad said:

Not sure if that's necessarily easier, but it does bring up a question for me:. Could they make a COC for the kids tour to the same effect?  Prohibiting caddies from standing on players line after address?

Trying to deal with "after address" will be very difficult to apply.  Address means placing the club immediately behind or in front of the ball.  Once a ball has been addressed through the green, it cannot be "unaddressed", so anything after the initial placing of the club would be a breach.  I can see a kid addressing the ball and then lifting the club to realign with assistance - but the ball has still been addressed.

[Martyn W]

I voted 'no' for two reasons:

1 .Caddies have always been part of the game, Tufts refers to a caddie as "my faithful associate" in Principles. I see no reason to diminish this well established relationship.

2. The Rules already permit assistance in alignment (laying a club on the ground, for example), should this be prohibited also?