Stack-n-Tilt - Still Screwing up Golfers after All These Years

[Ernest Jones]

32 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

Never been a big fan of S&T and these videos make me glad I never bought into it.  Maybe they could incorporate the Power Triangle or Cube too.

I think that's an unfair comparison. They've gotten completely ****ed up in how they teach the pattern but it's a good swing. 

[gregsandiego]

On 12/22/2015 at 1:32 PM, iacas said:

1. They allow posts like that - and comment and endorse publicly - on their Facebook group, etc.
2. Melainey is their head trainer.

That's not exaggerating side tilt (which is another mistake a lot of S&T folks make). It's an issue of over-extending. Side tilt changes the direction the head moves continually throughout the backswing. At A1, it makes the head go to and fro (targetward/away from target). At A4, it only moves the head up and down.

This thread seems like such inside talk I can hardly follow. Who Melainey and Plummer?

[Lihu]

On 12/23/2015 at 9:20 PM, RFKFREAK said:

OMG,

Generally speaking I'm probably not the best person to critique an instructor or golf instruction but, wow, this is terribad.  I'm so glad I didn't see these kind of videos when I first started getting into golf. 

Yeah, I kind of wondered why two of my random playing partners from yesterday did this move, consistently. They moved their heads up then forward. They got reasonable distances starting off at about 240 yards and eventually dropping to 210 yards throughout the day, and it looked like a lot of work where they started to hit shorter after just 10 holes. EDIT: The only explanation is that they were not doing stack and tilt at the "final level". At least that's what I think?

I'm with you where I'm glad I never learned this other crap, and pretty much came here within a year of starting.

EDIT: That video can't be the actual stack and tilt method being demonstrated? (EDIT): Charlie Wi, note that he doesn't move his head forward a foot or so:

 

http://www.jamesmartingolf.com/science-tech/model-golf-pros/charlie-wi/

 

[iacas]

9 hours ago, Ernest Jones said:

I think that's an unfair comparison. They've gotten completely ****ed up in how they teach the pattern but it's a good swing. 

Agreed.

This isn't what S&T is supposed to be, but it's what a lot of instructors have turned it into, including Melainey.

1 hour ago, gregsandiego said:

This thread seems like such inside talk I can hardly follow. Who Melainey and Plummer?

Andy Plummer.

Melainey Gunning, their director of training.

[mvmac]

23 hours ago, mvmac said:

You "stack" your upper center over your lower center (not much axis tilt, weight slightly left) and then "tilt" your torso left (for a righty) to get the body to turn on an inclined angle.

Just want to add that the left tilt/side bend is towards the ball, not the target. Something I think many students, maybe some of their instructors, don't really understand. Also the hips are contributing to most of the "tilt", not the spine as S&T tends to emphasized. Big reason why you see a lot of S&T students end up with their spine's actually leaning towards the target and their head moving down and forward. 

[mchepp]

@mvmac Isn't the move they are showing in the original video more like a exaggerated version of Mac's low wedge swing?

[gregsandiego]

10 hours ago, iacas said:

Agreed.

This isn't what S&T is supposed to be, but it's what a lot of instructors have turned it into, including Melainey.

Andy Plummer.

Melainey Gunning, their director of training.

Didn't Ben Hogan figure all this stuff out years ago?

 

http://amzn.to/1YBj1ti

 

 

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, gregsandiego said:

Didn't Ben Hogan figure all this stuff out years ago?

I don't even know what you're asking.

Golfers far and wide haven't figured it out.

[Dave2512]

On December 23, 2015 at 2:04 PM, RFKFREAK said:

At one time I considered taking lessons at GolfTec but after seeing this, I'm not sure I'd ever consider going it.

I have no clue if GT is worthwhile but nothing I saw or learned from their head guy resembled that. But I took just two hourly lessons. Never did any GT stuff.

He was a solid instructor just was 50 miles from me. I am no S&T expert, read the book, tried some things etc. But my recollection is he taught well. Wasn't stuck in any one thing. He seemed knowledgable and receptive. I know I left those lessons hitting the ball better. 

But I never walked into a Golfsmith of whatever thinking the guys there could show me anything. IMO that's low level instruction. 

[mvmac]

5 hours ago, mchepp said:

@mvmac Isn't the move they are showing in the original video more like a exaggerated version of Mac's low wedge swing?

Not sure what video you're referring to. For that kind of wedge shot Mac would want the spine pretty vertical at 4 and then have the upper center center move a little forward with the lower center with the body and hand path "turning the corner". So maybe to the backswing but no on the downswing. 

4 hours ago, gregsandiego said:

Didn't Ben Hogan figure all this stuff out years ago?

Figured what out? Ball flight laws? How the body works in a good golf swing?

[gregsandiego]

On 12/23/2015 at 9:21 AM, mvmac said:

The name came from Charlie Wi if I remember correctly. This came about when Plummer and Bennett were describing the movements of the swing to a writer for their 2007 Golf Digest article. You "stack" your upper center over your lower center (not much axis tilt, weight slightly left) and then "tilt" your torso left (for a righty) to get the body to turn on an inclined angle.

http://www.golfdigest.com/gallery/stackandtilt#2

Here is another wording I found on the web

With the stack and tilt swing, the golfer's weight remains "stacked" on the front foot throughout the swing while his or her back "tilts" forward to keep the spine and shoulders over the ball [source: Logan]. This differs from the traditional swing, in which a golfer's weight shifts from front to back during the backswing, and then forward on the downswing.

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/sports/golf/tips/stack-tilt-golf-swing1.htm

 

 

[RFKFREAK]

14 hours ago, Dave2512 said:

I have no clue if GT is worthwhile but nothing I saw or learned from their head guy resembled that. But I took just two hourly lessons. Never did any GT stuff.

He was a solid instructor just was 50 miles from me. I am no S&T expert, read the book, tried some things etc. But my recollection is he taught well. Wasn't stuck in any one thing. He seemed knowledgable and receptive. I know I left those lessons hitting the ball better. 

But I never walked into a Golfsmith of whatever thinking the guys there could show me anything. IMO that's low level instruction. 

I'm confused.

Nothing you saw or learned from who's head guy, GolfTec's or someone elses?

I'm just saying that I had a friend take a series of lessons two or three years ago from GolfTec and whereas I can't speak directly about their instruction, if this is what they're posting on their website, then it would make me very weary about considering them for golf instruction if I were in the process of looking.  If they're putting this on their website, in some way, they're endorsing it, IMO.

[Missouri Swede]

On December 23, 2015 at 11:21 AM, mvmac said:

The name came from Charlie Wi if I remember correctly. This came about when Plummer and Bennett were describing the movements of the swing to a writer for their 2007 Golf Digest article. You "stack" your upper center over your lower center (not much axis tilt, weight slightly left) and then "tilt" your torso left (for a righty) to get the body to turn on an inclined angle.

 

5 hours ago, gregsandiego said:

Here is another wording I found on the web

With the stack and tilt swing, the golfer's weight remains "stacked" on the front foot throughout the swing while his or her back "tilts" forward to keep the spine and shoulders over the ball [source: Logan]. This differs from the traditional swing, in which a golfer's weight shifts from front to back during the backswing, and then forward on the downswing.

Yeah, what Mike says. From their book:

 

[drew0071]

I think it is hilarious when 15 handicaps rip apart any swing method such as stack and tilt. Or when dudes who teach a lot of SnT components either currently or in the past do the same. But that's cool keep firing off some smooth 93's and peddling "keys"

[Lihu]

17 minutes ago, drew0071 said:

I think it is hilarious when 15 handicaps rip apart any swing method such as stack and tilt. Or when dudes who teach a lot of SnT components either currently or in the past do the same. But that's cool keep firing off some smooth 93's and peddling "keys"

Not sure to whom you are referring, but it seems like any method can be employed correctly or otherwise?

BTW, I can't really picture firing off a "smooth" 93? Somehow, I picture OB left, OB right, shanks, duffs, hitting greens in 3 on most holes no matter the par rating, and 3 putting a bunch of holes to boot.

[iacas]

31 minutes ago, drew0071 said:

I think it is hilarious when 15 handicaps rip apart any swing method such as stack and tilt. Or when dudes who teach a lot of SnT components either currently or in the past do the same. But that's cool keep firing off some smooth 93's and peddling "keys"

I'm not a 15. The OP is not a 15. Mike's not a 15. To whom are you referring?

And we (Dave Wedzik, Mike, myself, anyone associated with Golf Evolution) never taught an S&T that resembled the crap displayed in this thread, or seen often on the Facebook group, etc. And within months we'd changed the way we described the way the hips work relative to the way the spine worked, and other things.

If you'd like to have an intelligent conversation, we're happy to engage in one. Your post there isn't the way something like that will start, though.

[RFKFREAK]

57 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Not sure to whom you are referring, but it seems like any method can be employed correctly or otherwise?

BTW, I can't really picture firing off a "smooth" 93? Somehow, I picture OB left, OB right, shanks, duffs, hitting greens in 3 on most holes no matter the par rating, and 3 putting a bunch of holes to boot.

Sarcasm? 

[dkolo]

On 12/23/2015 at 8:52 AM, RFKFREAK said:

Seriously.  

If you think about the physics of it, it really makes no sense to put the ball forward in your stance is you want to hit a low shot.  Just amazing. 

Sure it does. If the ball can tell what I'm trying to do, it'll do the opposite. So if I try to confuse it, it might do what I want by accident.