Why is shallowing early better the shallowing late?

[nevets88]

So I take it as a given that life is much easier if you shallow the shaft from A4, as soon as possible from the top. If you look at swings of many good players, most of them shallow early. But I've never really asked myself why it works. There is a Twitter thread talking about this. It's basically better to lay it down early and stand it up late than the other way around.

When you shallow late, do you tend to have less control over the clubface say from extending the spine? And if you shallow early, it lets you stay in your inclination better?

[SavvySwede]

How would one shallow late? It'd be pretty hard to change the path of the club once it pick's up momentum.

[billchao]

1 hour ago, SavvySwede said:

How would one shallow late? It'd be pretty hard to change the path of the club once it pick's up momentum.

I don't know what they're discussing in the Twitter thread @nevets88 is talking about, but to me, shallowing late would be doing it sometime just before A5 as opposed to right from A4. I used to do it: pull down steep from the top and throw my arms out away from my body through the entire swing.

[iacas]

2 hours ago, SavvySwede said:

How would one shallow late? It'd be pretty hard to change the path of the club once it pick's up momentum.

Players do it all the time. Shaft's steep at 5, and they early extend and delay the arms coming down to get the club a bit shallower.

[Dave325]

9 hours ago, iacas said:

Players do it all the time. Shaft's steep at 5, and they early extend and delay the arms coming down to get the club a bit shallower.

I thought extending early was bad. So, why would someone want to do that? Is it for a particular shot type?

[nevets88]

Here are the Tweets that talk about this:

 

35 minutes ago, Dave325 said:

I thought extending early was bad. So, why would someone want to do that? Is it for a particular shot type?

As I understand it, a little is ok. Some tour players early extend but it is very subtle. Bill Haas for example. Hits it a long way. I think Dufner does. Geoff Ogilvy.

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Dave325 said:

I thought extending early was bad. So, why would someone want to do that? Is it for a particular shot type?

I didn't say it was good (though a little never really hurt anyone).

[MattM]

So....I understand the pulling the arms down then sort of pushing them away through impact to complete a late shallow type swing, but can someone explain to me in lehman's terms what you have to do to shallow early in the swing?

[Ernest Jones]

5 minutes ago, MattM said:

So....I understand the pulling the arms down then sort of pushing them away through impact to complete a late shallow type swing, but can someone explain to me in lehman's terms what you have to do to shallow early in the swing?

Lehman's terms? Lol, that's awesome!

I've had some success with swinging my hands outward over the ball from A4. Kind of a horizontal feel. 

Edited December 28, 2015 by Ernest Jones

[iacas]

15 minutes ago, MattM said:

So....I understand the pulling the arms down then sort of pushing them away through impact to complete a late shallow type swing, but can someone explain to me in lehman's terms what you have to do to shallow early in the swing?

The layman's terms are "shallow the club." It really doesn't get much simpler than that.

As for why any one person doesn't do it… there are lots of reasons. As for the feels that help address those reasons… they're plentiful and not at all fitting, necessarily. They may be different for everyone.

[mvmac]

18 hours ago, nevets88 said:

 It's basically better to lay it down early and stand it up late than the other way around.

When you shallow late, do you tend to have less control over the clubface say from extending the spine? And if you shallow early, it lets you stay in your inclination better?

I'd say it's better to shallow it early or gradually because if you do it "late" you're probably making some last second compensations and having to time the changing alignments of the swing. Potentially harder to control low point.

[DrvFrShow]

3 hours ago, MattM said:

So....I understand the pulling the arms down then sort of pushing them away through impact to complete a late shallow type swing, but can someone explain to me in lehman's terms what you have to do to shallow early in the swing?

Found this video....

 

[Dave325]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

I didn't say it was good (though a little never really hurt anyone).

I was wondering about that. I've been working hard to get rid of mine before I come see you in Erie.

[Ernest Jones]

23 minutes ago, Dave325 said:

I was wondering about that. I've been working hard to get rid of mine before I come see you in Erie.

Unless Erik, or some other credible instructor wants you to work on it, I'd leave it. I used to EE something fierce and came up with all kinds of tricks and feels to address it but they all caused other issues, more critical, faults. I suspect that your priority is elsewhere and when you work on that piece it will take care of the early extension as a side-effect. 

 

...of course YMMV. 

[Dave325]

15 minutes ago, Ernest Jones said:

Unless Erik, or some other credible instructor wants you to work on it, I'd leave it. I used to EE something fierce and came up with all kinds of tricks and feels to address it but they all caused other issues, more critical, faults. I suspect that your priority is elsewhere and when you work on that piece it will take care of the early extension as a side-effect. 

 

...of course YMMV. 

Good point, Ernest. Actually, my Evolvr coach has been pointing this issue out to me over past couple months. He says it's getting better, but still needs some work. I have been practicing with the Callaway Easy Swing. It seems that when I get the right elbow to stay in and bent up to impact, that I manage to consistently hit the sweet spot (using some dr. Scholls to test it). I have never had an actual in-person lesson, so I am looking forward to the trip.  Sorry everyone for sidebar on the OT stuff.

[natureboy]

8 hours ago, MattM said:

So....I understand the pulling the arms down then sort of pushing them away through impact to complete a late shallow type swing, but can someone explain to me in lehman's terms what you have to do to shallow early in the swing?

Effective feels or swing thoughts will differ per person, but a commonly validated image is to think sidearm 'infielder' throw or 'skipping a stone' from the top to help clear the hips and drop the trail elbow in toward the trail hip while allowing the clubhead to lag the start of the turn..

Edited December 29, 2015 by natureboy

[minitour]

You guys should embrace early extension. It makes golf fun!

 

Pull hook, solid shot that goes a mile, shank, rinse, repeat!  Guessing is half the fun...and your short game gets a nice workout, too!

[MattM]

First, I want to apologize for typing Lehman instead of layman.  I was at work and had to be quick. 

Iacas, come on man!  Just saying shallow out doesn't do anything to help the conversation!  Does it?  I'm not asking for a "swing feel."  Time and time again you guys have posted threads about what is happening in the swing without worry about "swing feels." 

Here is what I know (since I'm a paying customer of Evolvr) shallowing out the downswing by moving away from the ball (early extension) is bad if done too much.  I was doing it too much.  Saying that does not invoke a "swing feel."  Does it?

You can tell us what SHOULD BE DONE to shallow the swing early or gradually.  There is a right way to do it.  At least I would think there is?  For instance, I would think that the trail elbow (as Naturboy mentioned) would drop towards the back hip and start to point down the line some.  I don't know how much because I'm not a professional.  Do you guys have limits as to how some of this should be done? 

Iacas, you said that a little early extension won't necessarily hurt.  Does that mean that the head can move off of the ball a little?  I'm asking because THESE ARE my actually priorities right now.  The more I know on the right way to shallow the downswing the closer I am to fully understanding and fixing it.  

I was shallowing by moving off of the ball, but I hit absurd duckhooks.  When I don't move off the ball I get kind of steep in my downswing (which is not good either).  Knowing the right moves to make can help start someone down the right path.  I think the trail elbow information that Natureboy put up could be helpful to me.