To Search or not to Search?

[Phil McGleno]

My wife once got a ticket for going through a stop sign, but when she went to pay the fine the woman could not find the copy of her paperwork and she was going to get away with it.-Then a janitor who was taking out the trash saw the same name through the plastic and pulled it out and my wife had to pay her fine.

She did run the stop sign-She knew it. She almost got away with it because of a freak thing.-But then she did not.

Should she have been pissed at the janitor woman for noticing the paperwork in the trash bag?-Was the janitor an ASS or was the truth simply revealed.

[Fourputt]

23 minutes ago, iacas said:

Technically speaking, it's not his right to make a choice. Certainly not in match play when he can't play out of order. Yes, you're probably a jerk if you wander off and search for his ball - but maybe he's done the same thing to you twice already? But he doesn't have that right to make a choice.

Why assume it? Even if he is in a mildly bad spot he could still chip it near the green and chip it in.

What if his provisional is in a bunker? Or he has a really tricky putt? At what point are you doing the right thing - for you or for the world or for karma's sake - and how do you make sweeping generalizations about what an "ass" other people are for a scenario that you have in your head which may be different than the one they're envisioning? Particularly, again, when nobody else has said they're going to go rooting around looking under rocks and leaves for their golf ball?

There you go again. Nobody is saying that, are they? And yet the name-calling continues. Rick, seriously, you're calling other members asses and pricks. Enough.

It's not only not unnecessary, it's not at all "undue delay." This is the Rules of Golf forum and you have harped on others more than probably anyone about using the words in the Rules properly, so I encourage you to do so here.

He can't necessarily play a stroke if it's match play.

 

Sure he can!  I stated that if his provisional ball is away, then he CAN just play it before the original ball is found and end the discussion.

I can't help feeling as I do about this.  Golf is a game of sportsmanship more than just about any other game you can name.  That is all I see in this situation.  You are either a good sport and respect his request, or you are a poor sport and ignore him.  I'll add that I've never, ever, had anyone not accede to my decision to abandon a search.  

I've had my say.  Unless something new comes up I'll bow out.

[DaveP043]

There are so many things that may have happened to his first ball.  Perhaps its bounced to the edge of the woods, with an open shot to the green.  Maybe its even rolled out into the fairway, just over a ridge so that nobody on the tee could see it.  Does the opponent want to find it in those positions, where he has a realistic chance for par?  Do you step over that ball in the fairway, and deny him that chance?  After all, he's told you not to look.  Maybe he really means "Don't look anywhere bad, but please DO look in the good spots."  I stay with my answer, I take a cursory look as I walk by, and I'm not being a poor sport, I'm just playing golf.  

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Sure he can!  I stated that if his provisional ball is away, then he CAN just play it before the original ball is found and end the discussion.

Rick, please read the text that's written. I said "he can't necessarily play a stroke." If he's not away - if his ball is a foot from the hole as the original post indicated - he doesn't get to play his shot. If his ball was away then in the original post, your ball is inside his, and with two strokes less, so he's probably already conceded the hole to you.

And seriously, out of that whole post, that's what you chose to respond to? A misread single sentence at the end, that wasn't even in response to you?

7 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Golf is a game of sportsmanship more than just about any other game you can name. That is all I see in this situation. You are either a good sport and respect his request, or you are a poor sport and ignore him.  I've had my say.  Unless something new comes up I'll bow out.

So you're done calling other people names, then?  Good.

Other things have come up. What if, in walking to my ball, I see his sitting perched up just beside the cart path with an easy chip to the green? Am I an "ass" and a "prick" for pointing out that his ball may be sitting in a good spot? Because, as we know, he then has to identify whether that is his golf ball or not.

[Fourputt]

1 minute ago, DaveP043 said:

There are so many things that may have happened to his first ball.  Perhaps its bounced to the edge of the woods, with an open shot to the green.  Maybe its even rolled out into the fairway, just over a ridge so that nobody on the tee could see it.  Does the opponent want to find it in those positions, where he has a realistic chance for par?  Do you step over that ball in the fairway, and deny him that chance?  After all, he's told you not to look.  Maybe he really means "Don't look anywhere bad, but please DO look in the good spots."  I stay with my answer, I take a cursory look as I walk by, and I'm not being a poor sport, I'm just playing golf.  

What if your ball is on the other side of the fairway?  In that case you aren't just "walking by", you are going out of your way to ignore his request.

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, Fourputt said:

What if your ball is on the other side of the fairway?  In that case you aren't just "walking by", you are going out of your way to ignore his request.

I don't believe anyone has said they'd give any more effort than a cursory glance.  If you read my intention as going out of my way to look, I apologize, but that's not how I intended it.

[iacas]

1 minute ago, DaveP043 said:

I don't believe anyone has said they'd give any more effort than a cursory glance.  If you read my intention as going out of my way to look, I apologize, but that's not how I intended it.

@Fourputt, how many people have to say this thing in response to you before you stop putting those words in people's mouths (or at their fingertips, I suppose)?

I have not yet seen a single person type that they would send out a search party for a full five minutes and overturn everything they possibly could to locate the golf ball.

[SavvySwede]

7 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

What if your ball is on the other side of the fairway?  In that case you aren't just "walking by", you are going out of your way to ignore his request.

I believe a couple of people have already addressed this specific situation and their answers were no.

[Missouri Swede]

4 hours ago, MacDutch said:

Even if he hits it in the hole, the first ball is the ball in play until both players together decide it is lost.

Not quite.  No one decides if a ball is lost or not.  It is either lost according to one of the criteria in the definition, or it isn't. 

For holing out the provisional, it becomes the ball in play when it is removed from the hole:

Quote

27-2b/2

When Provisional Ball Holed Becomes Ball in Play

Q.At a short hole, A's tee shot may be out of bounds or lost, so he plays a provisional ball, which he holes. A does not wish to look for his original ball. B, A's opponent or a fellow-competitor, goes to look for the original ball. When does the provisional ball become the ball in play?

A.In equity (Rule 1-4) the provisional ball becomes the ball in play as soon as A picks it out of the hole, provided his original ball has not already been found in bounds within five minutes of B starting to search for it.

 

[mvmac]

1 hour ago, Fourputt said:

If I'm away, I not going to be an ass (yes that's what I call it) and force him to stand around and watch for 5 minutes while I search for his ball by myself just to be a prick.  

Everyone that has said they would look for the ball has specified that it be a quick look and not a 5 minute search party.

33 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

I can't help feeling as I do about this.  Golf is a game of sportsmanship more than just about any other game you can name.  That is all I see in this situation.  You are either a good sport and respect his request, or you are a poor sport and ignore him.  I'll add that I've never, ever, had anyone not accede to my decision to abandon a search.  

I don't get why looking for the ball is viewed so negatively. It's not "gamesmanship", it's just adhering to the reality of the situation. 

What if his ball bounced off a tree and is now in the middle of the fairway? Am I being a bad sport by identifying the ball?

25 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

 I stay with my answer, I take a cursory look as I walk by, and I'm not being a poor sport, I'm just playing golf.  

Yep.

[Golfingdad]

54 minutes ago, mvmac said:

What if his ball bounced off a tree and is now in the middle of the fairway? Am I being a bad sport by identifying the ball?

Perhaps @Fourputt is being a little harsh in some of his answers, but I think it's unfair to say he's not reading the OP when many "rebuttals" to what he is saying are a variation of this.  The OP says the ball was hit INTO the dense trees, and the OP didn't give any information beyond that, other than it's likely to be in a bad spot.  So to rebut fourputt by saying "what if I find it on the fairway" also goes against the OP, does it not?

Further, and I'm making an assumption here but, I think it's a safe bet that the player wouldn't make it known that its "against his wishes" for you to look for it until he was pretty certain it was in the trees.  If I'm that player the only reason I call it a provisional is on the off chance that it took some crazy bounce.  So I'm actually going to take that cursory look on my own as I'm walking up (and I think it's a fair assumption that the player in OPs case would do the same), therefore if you're doing it too, its not against my wishes yet and you are fine.  No "unwritten rules" are being violated.

Perhaps some clarification is warranted here from @Big C?  Colin, when you asked the question about searching against his wishes, did you envision that the searcher would be walking into the woods or just glancing cursorily (is that a word? :P) at the grass near the edge of the woods?

[DaveP043]

12 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Perhaps some clarification is warranted here from @Big C?  Colin, when you asked the question about searching against his wishes, did you envision that the searcher would be walking into the woods or just glancing cursorily (is that a word? :P) at the grass near the edge of the woods?

Oh sure, act like the voice of reason just when things were getting fun!.  As I read back, I don't think any of us are too far apart.  I don't think anyone has suggested that he'd do a full scale deep-in-the-woods 5-minute delay-the-whole-field search.  In fact, most of the guys who talked about searching were only likely to find a ball if it was in pretty decent position, leading to the possibility of a par.  We're not trying to screw the opponent, and might actually end up doing him a favor.

I blame @Big C for tossing the proverbial Baby Ruth into the pool!

And yes, cursorily IS a word, according to Miriam-Webster.com

[newtogolf]

In my club championship match, I hit a big slice far off our fairway and to the left of a building, I hit a provisional given it was so far off the course I was confident it was lost.  My competitor requested our fore caddie to search for the ball.  When I reached the provisional, the caddie shouted he found my ball and that I'd have to play it, not the provisional.  

9 out of 10 times I'd mess up that shot and end up losing the hole, this time it worked out to my benefit.  

[MacDutch]

It all depends on what is at stake in my eyes. If you are playing the final of the worldchampionship golf (pro) and this happens at hole 18 all square, I am sure they will search for the ball. 

Playing just a game among friends for a beer at stake, allmost everyone will accept not to look for the ball when asked.

But to me it feels like a double standard, when it is an important game for me and they accuse me of unsportsmenship if I go and look for the ball. I am sure the opponent would look for the ball if his provisional would be in the water instead of next to the cup. So he gets a choice depending on how good his provisional is and I don't?

[iacas]

20 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Perhaps @Fourputt is being a little harsh in some of his answers, but I think it's unfair to say he's not reading the OP when many "rebuttals" to what he is saying are a variation of this.  The OP says the ball was hit INTO the dense trees, and the OP didn't give any information beyond that, other than it's likely to be in a bad spot.  So to rebut fourputt by saying "what if I find it on the fairway" also goes against the OP, does it not?

Further, and I'm making an assumption here but, I think it's a safe bet that the player wouldn't make it known that its "against his wishes" for you to look for it until he was pretty certain it was in the trees.  If I'm that player the only reason I call it a provisional is on the off chance that it took some crazy bounce.  So I'm actually going to take that cursory look on my own as I'm walking up (and I think it's a fair assumption that the player in OPs case would do the same), therefore if you're doing it too, its not against my wishes yet and you are fine.  No "unwritten rules" are being violated.

Perhaps some clarification is warranted here from @Big C?  Colin, when you asked the question about searching against his wishes, did you envision that the searcher would be walking into the woods or just glancing cursorily (is that a word? :P) at the grass near the edge of the woods?

Lot of assumptions there.

Plus @Fourputt has already demonstrated that he didn't really read the OP too well since he's talked about the guy's ball being "away." If your ball is inside a foot and he is "away" then he's probably already conceded.

Plus, maybe he said "don't look for my ball" when he hit his second shot. Why did you assume it's after he is fairly certain it's in the trees? Did he already look for a little bit, not see it anywhere easy, and then say it? Why did you assume that? I know I didn't. I figured he said it on the tee (or wherever he hit the shot from). The OP says "Your opponent declares that he is abandoning his first shot and walks quickly up towards the green." So your interpretation seems to be the one at odds here. He declares something AND (then is implied) "walks quickly up towards the green."

And, if @Big C "clarified" things now, people would have to go back and re-visit their answers, and new people might miss the clarification later on. My answers, as I've said all along, depend on the situation.

But, I continue to assert that it's really not poor sportsmanship to find the ball, in any situation. It is, again, the "truth" while choosing not to look is asking to be excused from your deed. The Rules of Golf may give you the leeway to do so, but they don't codify it. In fact, they do the opposite in a small way with 27/13. How do you rectify the existence of 27/13, @Golfingdad? Do the Rules of Golf codify "being a jerk" in having that Decision? Couldn't they have just said "a competitor is not required to identify his ball" if they wanted to codify this type of behavior, and act? After all… he'd still be paying the two-stroke penalty.

[boogielicious]

39 minutes ago, MacDutch said:

It all depends on what is at stake in my eyes. If you are playing the final of the worldchampionship golf (pro) and this happens at hole 18 all square, I am sure they will search for the ball. 

Playing just a game among friends for a beer at stake, almost everyone will accept not to look for the ball when asked.

You underestimate how much my friends like beer!

I agree there needs to be more clarification from the OP. It also depends on the nature of the woods, difficulty getting in there, likelihood of finding it from previous experience, etc. If it's a briar patch, we may not even enter, but just walk along the perimeter and look it.

[MrQster]

Very interesting topic, I glanced through several posts but didn't notice anyone commented about this "opponent".

If he declared playing his provisional ball without even looking for the first ball, then doesn't it tell you so much about his character.

If this was me, I would comply with his wish not to look for his ball and continue to finish the game. But it would be my last round playing with him.

To me, he's not a golfer and certainly not a gentleman, not worthy of playing this beautiful game. He obviously doesn't understand the meaning of the "provisional" ball, I don't expect people to spend exactly 5 minutes looking for a lost balls, but at least give it a bit of an effort, even 1 minute would do.

Obviously, winning for this "opponent" matters more than the respect for the game of golf.  Not someone I want to waste my time with when I'm out there to enjoy this wonderful game.

Edited March 2, 2016 by MrQster

[Big C]

Yikes, I step away from the computer for a morning and things get really good!

To answer @Golfingdad's question, the intent of the search I was referring to was closer to the "5 minute search party," and not the "casual glance in the vicinity" that others referenced. 

My purpose for asking the question was this. In a scenario where it's very likely (but by no means certain) that finding a competitor/opponent's original ball will put him in a worse spot, do you actively undertake an effort to find the ball against his wishes? Whatever your reason for searching may be (for personal benefit in a match, because you think it's the right thing to do, whatever), do you give more than just a casual glance?

And to clarify even further, I would define "active" as even a brief 30 second detour into the tree-lined area where you saw the ball disappear. It wouldn't have to be the full 5 minutes, but basically anything beyond a glance.

1 hour ago, MrQster said:

 

If he declared playing his provisional ball without even looking for the first ball, then doesn't it tell you so much about his character.

If this was me, I would comply with his wish not to look for his ball and continue to finish the game. But it would be my last round playing with him.

To me, he's not a golfer and certainly not a gentleman, not worthy of playing this beautiful game. 

That seems a bit extreme.