To Search or not to Search?

[saevel25]

2 minutes ago, Big C said:

My purpose for asking the question was this. In a scenario where it's very likely (but by no means certain) that finding a competitor/opponent's original ball will put him in a worse spot, do you actively undertake an effort to find the ball against his wishes? Whatever your reason for searching may be (for personal benefit in a match, because you think it's the right thing to do, whatever), do you give more than just a casual glance?

I think people have to realize it's not a worse spot. He put himself in that spot to begin with. By the rules you have 5 minutes to search for it. Finding it does nothing to make it worse because the ball is where it is due to the poor golf shot. 

 

[Golfingdad]

5 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I think people have to realize it's not a worse spot. He put himself in that spot to begin with. By the rules you have 5 minutes to search for it. Finding it does nothing to make it worse because the ball is where it is due to the poor golf shot. 

Taking things a little too literally here, I believe.  He obviously means worse in comparison to his provisional which is sitting a foot from the hole.

[Big C]

8 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I think people have to realize it's not a worse spot. He put himself in that spot to begin with. By the rules you have 5 minutes to search for it. Finding it does nothing to make it worse because the ball is where it is due to the poor golf shot. 

 

I'm not sure what you mean. "Worse spot" is simply a relative term used to compare the two possibilities. The player hit both shots - one is going to be in a worse position than the other. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point?

[newtogolf]

If it's match play or tournament why would it be a jerk move to look for his ball?  

The player who hit the ball would have five minutes to look for the ball if they believed it was in a location that would benefit them and save them the loss of a stroke by playing the provisional.  

I see it almost as a form of cheating.  I hit a ball deep into the woods and then hit a provisional.  At that point I can decide if the first ball is worth looking for based on what's best for my score and I should just expect my competitor to accept my decision?    

[saevel25]

2 minutes ago, Big C said:

I'm not sure what you mean. "Worse spot" is simply a relative term used to compare the two possibilities. The player hit both shots - one is going to be in a worse position than the other. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point?

I think it's not logical to feel guilty for finding his ball just because his provisional is in a good spot.

On a side note, a savvy player could realize his provisional is behind a tree and take a full 5 minutes in hope to find his ball and declare it unplayable to get a 2nd crack at putting another ball in play in a better position. I think it goes both ways a bit. 

In the end I think it might be in the best interest to actually find the ball within the allotted time as to fully play out the rules. 

 

[MrQster]

A bit extreme?  possibly, depending on whose point of view.

And I can see that it would be extreme for those who don't take the game very seriously.

And by seriously, I don't mean having serious face like the tour players throughout the round.  My closest golf buddies and I take golf seriously, we play by the rules and respect golf ettiquettes, however we still joke around and having lots of fun on the course, we just don't "cheat" in any form. 

Life's too short, I rather playing this great game with someone I enjoy playing with, not those who care more about winning than golf rules & ettiquettes.  

[Golfingdad]

5 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

In the end I think it might be in the best interest to actually find the ball within the allotted time as to fully play out the rules. 

This is the kind of insinuation that bugs me.  You're suggesting that not looking for it and playing on with the provisional is somehow not "fully" by the rules.

8 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

At that point I can decide if the first ball is worth looking for based on what's best for my score and I should just expect my competitor to accept my decision?    

No, nobody is telling you what to expect.  We're giving our opinions on how we'd handle it and how we might feel based on others handling of it.

---

And the rules really have nothing to do with this.  We've all stipulated from the beginning in this thread that we'd play by the rules.  Nobody is cheating.  Nobody is suggesting anything remotely like cheating.  So the rules shouldn't be part of the discussion.  We all recognize that the player has every right to search for the ball, and have never suggested otherwise.

[MrQster]

29 minutes ago, Big C said:

...My purpose for asking the question was this. In a scenario where it's very likely (but by no means certain) that finding a competitor/opponent's original ball will put him in a worse spot, do you actively undertake an effort to find the ball against his wishes? Whatever your reason for searching may be (for personal benefit in a match, because you think it's the right thing to do, whatever), do you give more than just a casual glance?

I'm sure I already indicated that I would not.  But this is about him, not about me.  If he wants to avoid the chance of being in the worse situation that he may loose and ignore the rules of golf and ettiquettes, then let him be.  

But from that point on, he's not a golfer that I want to spend my precious time with on the golf course.  But that's just me, I have many golf buddies who respect the game as much as I do, if anyone of them do that, they would be off my preferred list. 

[newtogolf]

35 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

This is the kind of insinuation that bugs me.  You're suggesting that not looking for it and playing on with the provisional is somehow not "fully" by the rules.

No, nobody is telling you what to expect.  We're giving our opinions on how we'd handle it and how we might feel based on others handling of it.

---

And the rules really have nothing to do with this.  We've all stipulated from the beginning in this thread that we'd play by the rules.  Nobody is cheating.  Nobody is suggesting anything remotely like cheating.  So the rules shouldn't be part of the discussion.  We all recognize that the player has every right to search for the ball, and have never suggested otherwise.

I understand what  you're saying, I experienced it.  When he asked the fore caddie to look for the ball it felt petty.  I may have felt differently if I didn't hit a great shot and save par but after the hole I recognized that he was playing by the rules and that he was within his right to search for my ball.  

It's not much different to me than if a competitor concedes short putts the entire round then decides to make me putt out the last few holes or requires you to putt out when you've conceded a putt that is longer than yours.  

If I was in a tournament I'd likely do the same if the match was tight.  Some may call it gamesmanship others would say that's how the game is played.  

[Golfingdad]

1 minute ago, newtogolf said:

I understand what  you're saying, I experienced it.  When he asked the fore caddie to look for the ball it felt petty.  I may have felt differently if I didn't hit a great shot and save par but after the hole I recognized that he was playing by the rules and that he was within his right to search for my ball.  

It's not much different to me than if a competitor concedes short putts the entire round then decides to make me putt out the last few holes or requires you to putt out when you've conceded a putt that is longer than yours.  

If I was in a tournament I'd likely do the same if the match was tight.  Some may call it gamesmanship others would say that's how the game is played.  

Right, "petty" is a good word.  I'd be annoyed.  I wouldn't be vocal about it or anything though, because I recognize he's well within the rules to search.  I would just think a little bit less of the guy afterwards.  If I didn't know him, I wouldn't jump to make friends with him.  If I already was friends with him, then this would probably just be a tick mark in the "con" column of my imaginary "reasons for and against our friendship" list.  

[Pretzel]

In tournaments I usually give it a cursory search even if the person says he'll just play his provisional, because, at the very least, I could be saving him $5 by finding the golf ball for him. I'm not going to release the bloodhounds or anything like that to search extensively, but I will still pass by the area where I saw his original land (provided it's not unreasonably out of my way) and survey the ground as I walk ahead towards where my ball is. The extent of my search is that I'll alter my path to go through a likely area where his ball would be and just look at the ground while I walk to see if I happen to spot it.

It's not gamesmanship. He hit the ball there, and if I happen to find it before he takes his next stroke he just has to play it. I wasn't maliciously trying to find his ball to make him play it, but it's something that satisfies my own personal curiosity of where his ball is if I end up finding it. 

I wouldn't, however, go out of my way to try and ensure his ball is found before he plays his next shot. I won't call others over with me, and I won't ask spectators to help me look or anything. That would be what I would consider petty, and it would also slow down the round. Tournaments go slow enough as it is that me deviating from a straight line path to my ball to briefly look doesn't slow us down and potentially saves the player $5 or so.

[Fourputt]

3 hours ago, MrQster said:

Very interesting topic, I glanced through several posts but didn't notice anyone commented about this "opponent".

If he declared playing his provisional ball without even looking for the first ball, then doesn't it tell you so much about his character.

I don't quite understand this comment.  The rules require you to play the provisional ball before you go forward to search.  Once you have left the tee area toward your original ball, going back and playing a second ball is not playing a provisional, that ball is the ball in play under stroke and distance and the original ball is lost, even if it is subsequently found right next to the green.

I've never said that there was anything wrong with just walking up the edge of the crap and watching for a ball.  My issue was with anyone making a point of going out of his way to search for the ball after the player has chosen to abandon it.  

This is how the original question was posed, and it's why I answered like I did.  I still stay with my response, that to make a point of searching for the ball does make you "that guy" as the OP stated in his opening scenario.

[bkuehn1952]

41 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

My issue was with anyone making a point of going out of his way to search for the ball after the player has chosen to abandon it.  

This is how the original question was posed, and it's why I answered like I did.  I still stay with my response, that to make a point of searching for the ball does make you "that guy" as the OP stated in his opening scenario.

Strictly talking about Match Play.  I totally agree in Stroke play that if someone doesn't want me to look, I won't.

It seems like looking for a ball after an opponent has said "don't look" is an issue.  Would it be accurate to say that once an opponent has said, "don't look", anyone "looking", beyond where one must walk to get to the green, is "that guy"?

[Pete]

23 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

As to @Pete's point about returning a ball to the right spot on the green, I never knowingly allow my opponent to break the rules in order to win a hole.  Marked ball, teeing in front of the markers, illegal drop, any of that.  Searching for a ball that is in play just isn't the same thing.

To me they are both things you can do that are within the rules, that are against the spirit of the game. I guess we have a different idea of what the spirit of the game is. I think I'm in the minority.

 

[Pete]

@Fourputt I'm with you mate.

[DaveP043]

On 3/1/2016 at 5:28 PM, Big C said:

You are on the back nine of a very tight match against a good opponent. You are teeing off into a long par 3 lined with dense trees along the right of the hole. You hit a decent shot to the back of the green that puts you about 40 feet above the hole - on the surface, but leaving a very tricky downhill putt. 

Your opponent tees off and slices his ball into the forest on the right. Based on the density of the trees, there is a chance that he may not be able to find the ball. Even if he does, the second shot will likely be obstructed. So he plays a provisional and hits a beautiful second shot that lands and sticks 1 foot from the cup - a sure-fire tap in bogey. Your opponent declares that he is abandoning his first shot and walks quickly up towards the green. 

So I went back to the original quote, and I'm wondering what kind of idiot your opponent was.  You're on the green, probably a 70 or 80% chance to make par, and he's making bogey.  And he CHOOSES to eliminate any chance of finding his ball in a playable location and possibly making par.  If I'm the opponent, I'm the one walking along the tree line, hoping to find my ball.  If I find it in a bad place, well I've lost virtually nothing.  If I find it and can play it, I've given myself a better chance to tie the hole, and a slim chance to win it. 

[jsgolfer]

I can't believe I missed this topic for so long.  

I voted no on both, I wouldn't go look for the ball after the player declared it lost.  However, I don't think I've played with anyone who didn't at least make a cursory look for any lost ball.  Although there have been times if it was my ball, I probably wouldn't have looked for it. 

In fact, I once told a competitor, are you sure you want to look for the ball.  He hit his ball into some thick brush behind a green, played his provisional to about 20 feet.  When we went to back of green, it was thick brush.  Just from a quick look, finding the ball was almost certainly going to be worse than being on the green in 3.  He jumped down into the thicket to look just in case, so I helped and found his ball.  Needless to say he lost that hole to me, I was on the green with a lengthy birdie putt and made 4.  I'm not sure he ever got his ball out of the brush.

And maybe I'm mis-remembering, as I'm getting older, but for some reason i thought something similar to this happened at the Master's on the par 3 12th hole many years ago.  I can't remember the golfer, but for some reason I remember one of the announcers saying I wonder if the competitor will look for the ball that went into the thicket to the left of the green.

[Golfingdad]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

So I went back to the original quote, and I'm wondering what kind of idiot your opponent was.  You're on the green, probably a 70 or 80% chance to make par, and he's making bogey.  And he CHOOSES to eliminate any chance of finding his ball in a playable location and possibly making par.  If I'm the opponent, I'm the one walking along the tree line, hoping to find my ball.  If I find it in a bad place, well I've lost virtually nothing.  If I find it and can play it, I've given myself a better chance to tie the hole, and a slim chance to win it. 

LOL, agreed ... rest assured, though, because I'm pretty sure he said it was a hypothetical scenario and not a real opponent. 

---

What I've done in situations where I've already hit a good provisional is I go over to the area where my ball is and I look only at the portions of that area where I might be able to play it, or get a decent look after an unplayable drop.  If there is a patch of bushes where it's obvious that the ball wouldn't be playable (and there isn't a good spot to drop near it) then I'm not going to go rooting around in there, because I'm not helping my cause.  But, yeah, I certainly wouldn't abandon the search before it started because you never know.