Presidential Race 2016

[newtogolf]

13 hours ago, Chilli Dipper said:

If all politicians are pandering, I'll side with the one promising to make my life better over the one promising to make other people's lives worse.

"Free stuff?" Sure, I'll take some. If I don't get it, big deal.

"America's going down the toilet, and it's all the Mexicans'/Muslims'/gays'/unions'/liberals'/China's fault; let's take it out on them?" That attitude goes against my personal values, and what I believe are common American civic values. Frankly, the other side doesn't need to offer me free stuff to vote against that.

I don't always agree with the wording that Trump uses but his overall views do reflect a number of problems in this country.

Mexicans - it's not just Mexicans it's anyone that entered this country illegally, doesn't pay taxes but utilizes tax payer money and resources.  We have an immigration policy that should be enforced, try to enter another country illegally, steal their citizens resources and see how it goes.  

Muslims - again not all Muslims, but those whose backgrounds cannot be verified to not be tied to ISIS / ISIL or other terrorist organizations.  Look at what is happening in Sweden and Germany given all the refugees they took in, it's not pretty.

Gays - As far as I know, Trump supports gay rights and even the transgender use of bathrooms they identify with.  

Unions - they have outlived their usefulness, they exist to scalp money from workers and are as corrupt as government.  

China - no one can deny our trade policies with China are one sided and place all of our own corporations at a disadvantage.  I'm willing to pay a bit more for goods if it means more people in our country will have better paying manufacturing jobs.  

[phillyk]

9 hours ago, Chilli Dipper said:

Bullcrap. This is a man who has absolutely no shame about being the adopted messiah of the white supremacist movement. He wants to blow up the global geopolitical consensus that has been in place since at least the end of the Cold War, and replace it with a diplomacy where America doesn't help you unless you pay up and kiss the ring. A foreign policy platform that he has attached a slogan to which comes with the legacy of those who would have let the rest of the Western world succumb to the forces of fascism, and allow the extermination of Europe's Jewish population to continue unabated, because it was none of our business. That's not how liberal democracies conduct their business, and I'll be damned if we start doing the bidding of any tyrant or authoritarian strongman who knows to butter Trump up.

Donald Trump is already on the wrong side of history, and if your entire campaign has been built on a mountain of bluster and scapegoating, pandering is all you've got.

Many military personnel already said Trump can go to hell if he expects the military to kill families and do other war-crime activities. 

 

16 hours ago, newtogolf said:

No desire to debate with you whether Trump's pandering is worse than the others.  We have a right to be angry, our government has failed us for the last 16 years and no one seems focused on making critical changes to improve it except Trump.  

Bernie and Hillary offering more free stuff and higher minimum wages we can't afford is equally dangerous, people need to stop expecting handouts, get off their asses (if they're capable) and go work for what they want.  .  

The problem is that there are lots more people going to college with equal if not less jobs open to those who graduate than before.  So competition is higher, and its higher for crappy paying jobs.  I had a marine science major because when I was growing up, research was bigger in that area.  Once I graduated, funding was out the door, so I found other options.  Yes I found something I thoroughly enjoy but that's not the story of many college graduates.  English, history, anthropology, many sciences, are practically worthless majors now because either the jobs are very low paying or if there are high paying jobs, there's only a handful open for the thousands of people who want it. Business, accounting, and manufacturing majors are really the only majors that have the most openings in the work force with decent pay.  So, throw all that in there, you have a few graduates with good jobs who can pay back their loans no problem, and then there's everybody else with a weak income and virtually no money to pay back their loans.  They would've been better just skipping college and working at McDonalds and not build up the thousands in debt for a major that doesn't help them.  Yet, all those nice paying jobs require college education, so it's kind of crappy for a lot of people.

I don't think many people believe they will get free college education.  They want the banks and colleges to find a solution to this student loan system and make education more affordable.

[Chilli Dipper]

The cost of higher education is a huge deal to me, because like a lot of people my age who got out of college in the middle of the recession, I'm underwater in student loan debt. I don't think Bernie Sanders can deliver on his promise of free college education, but I do believe he would hard to make sure younger generations won't be saddled with the financial burden my generation has, and it's not right to place that load on people's shoulders while doing what they've been told is necessary to succeed.

I don't think that immigration is the problem conservatives make it out to be; even if I do suppose it so, I believe physical barriers serve as an effective deterrent. We built a massive border fence during the Bush administration, and it hasn't made any significant impact. Instead of realizing that perhaps a different approach to the issue is required to get results, Donald Trump has made doubling down on a proven failure his campaign trademark.

I don't see the successful "I didn't get exactly what I wanted, but I'm pleased with the outcome" endgame for Trump's position. If he doesn't build the wall, his supporters will be furious; if he does build the wall, he's wasted a ton of resources on a white elephant, and he still needs to come up with a stopgap solution for when undocumented migrants inevitably find their way across the border.

[14ledo81]

36 minutes ago, phillyk said:

Many military personnel already said Trump can go to hell if he expects the military to kill families and do other war-crime activities. 

 

The problem is that there are lots more people going to college with equal if not less jobs open to those who graduate than before.  So competition is higher, and its higher for crappy paying jobs.  I had a marine science major because when I was growing up, research was bigger in that area.  Once I graduated, funding was out the door, so I found other options.  Yes I found something I thoroughly enjoy but that's not the story of many college graduates.  English, history, anthropology, many sciences, are practically worthless majors now because either the jobs are very low paying or if there are high paying jobs, there's only a handful open for the thousands of people who want it. Business, accounting, and manufacturing majors are really the only majors that have the most openings in the work force with decent pay.  So, throw all that in there, you have a few graduates with good jobs who can pay back their loans no problem, and then there's everybody else with a weak income and virtually no money to pay back their loans.  They would've been better just skipping college and working at McDonalds and not build up the thousands in debt for a major that doesn't help them.  Yet, all those nice paying jobs require college education, so it's kind of crappy for a lot of people.

I don't think many people believe they will get free college education.  They want the banks and colleges to find a solution to this student loan system and make education more affordable.

 

So.. you adapted to the change?  Mabye made a few harder decisions, worked a bit harder (than you had originally planned) to get where you wanted to go.  Good.  And you feel bad for those that don't?

I also don't get that someone "should" get paid a certain wage because that is the field they like.  I would very much like to do something else for work.  I have a family to support and bills to pay though.  If the field you "like" doesn't pay well, then you have a hard decision to make.  Less pay = more enjoyable career, or more pay = less enjoyable career.  Either decision is fine with me, don't ask me to help foot the bill if you chose the lower paying career though.

[phillyk]

54 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

 

So.. you adapted to the change?  Mabye made a few harder decisions, worked a bit harder (than you had originally planned) to get where you wanted to go.  Good.  And you feel bad for those that don't?

I also don't get that someone "should" get paid a certain wage because that is the field they like.  I would very much like to do something else for work.  I have a family to support and bills to pay though.  If the field you "like" doesn't pay well, then you have a hard decision to make.  Less pay = more enjoyable career, or more pay = less enjoyable career.  Either decision is fine with me, don't ask me to help foot the bill if you chose the lower paying career though.

I'm a special case, I was always a golfer even during schooling.  I decided on golf management instead of deep ocean research. It was a pretty easy decision, just took a while to find a professional position.

I don't think they should get a certain wage either, but it doesn't help that they got saddled with 6 figures in debt from student loans and they also have to pay off their car or house or apartment rent.  I also don't think it's as easy as you make it to be to just switch to something you don't like.  If it were that easy, more people would do it.  Problem is they might have to go back for more schooling to fit that position, and all of a sudden, there's more debt.  I also agree, it's not up to the government to provide money for the people, they should take care of themselves.  But it'd be awfully nice if the banks weren't so greedy and screwing up student loan systems.  True I don't know how to fix it, but I do know it wasn't so screwed up 15 years ago.

Regarding chillidipper's post, it's funny because there already is a "wall" on the border.  Building a bigger one will just turn the tennis net into a volleyball net.  Mexicans are also a very hard working people.  They take the jobs that no one else is lining up for.  They jump on the tractors to plant the fields, and come back for harvest.  If we tried giving those jobs to the homeless or unemployed people who live here, they'd tell us heck no and let the Mexicans do it.  As if it's below them to work in the fields.  Mexicans didn't come here to bring cocaine, they came to find work.  Also I'm pretty sure the net immigration from Mexico right now is zero.  It's not like more are pouring in every day.

Edited May 2, 2016 by phillyk

[saevel25]

 

10 hours ago, Chilli Dipper said:

That's not how liberal democracies conduct their business, and I'll be damned if we start doing the bidding of any tyrant or authoritarian strongman who knows to butter Trump up.

We are not a liberal democracy.

We are a federal republic. Each state has it's own established government and is tied together with a strong federal government (sadly). Given we have shifted towards being more of a democracy, which is a bad thing in my opinion. Still, we are no were near being a liberal democracy.

"The government of the United States of America is the federal government of the republic of fifty states that constitute the United States, as well as one capital district, and several other territories. The federal government is composed of three distinct branches: legislative, executive, and judicial, whose powers are vested by the U.S. Constitution in the Congress, the President, and the federal courts, including the Supreme Court, respectively. The powers and duties of these branches are further defined by acts of Congress, including the creation of executive departments and courts inferior to the Supreme Court."

 

30 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

Mexicans - it's not just Mexicans it's anyone that entered this country illegally, doesn't pay taxes but utilizes tax payer money and resources.  We have an immigration policy that should be enforced, try to enter another country illegally, steal their citizens resources and see how it goes. 

It's a lot more than just Mexicans who are not paying taxes. 45% of this country pay no Federal Income tax.

Yet Trump wants to increase that to 50% as per his plan on his website.

31 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

Muslims - again not all Muslims, but those whose backgrounds cannot be verified to not be tied to ISIS / ISIL or other terrorist organizations.  Look at what is happening in Sweden and Germany given all the refugees they took in, it's not pretty.

I would say that the system needs to be fixed first before implementing this. There are people who have middle eastern names, who might not even be Muslim, that end up on a list classifying them as a terrorist. I believe Oliver did a video on this a few months ago, as well with people who get on the you are classified as dead list.

33 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

China - no one can deny our trade policies with China are one sided and place all of our own corporations at a disadvantage.  I'm willing to pay a bit more for goods if it means more people in our country will have better paying manufacturing jobs. 

Just wait a bit. China is having issues with their labor right now.  As soon as you have an economic revolution in a country the quality of life improves and labor doesn't become cheap anymore.  Africa is going to be the next big push. Lots of cheap labor there.

You are not going to see many manufacturing jobs return to the US because it isn't just cheap labor in places like China or India. It's a new market for selling those goods.

Example, GM moved their car making to China. It has two benefits. First, it's cheap labor. Second, it's big growth market for them. Back when GM struggled (2008-2010) in the US they were selling more cars in China then they were in the US.

43 minutes ago, phillyk said:

The problem is that there are lots more people going to college with equal if not less jobs open to those who graduate than before.

I also think it has to do with a lot of crappy degrees. People think they can just get any degree they want, that in no way prepares them for the fact they probably will not get that job, and they struggle because of it. A lot of these degrees are there so the colleges can get a government backed paycheck.

[Chilli Dipper]

36 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

 

We are not a liberal democracy.

We are a federal republic. Each state has it's own established government and is tied together with a strong federal government (sadly). Given we have shifted towards being more of a democracy, which is a bad thing in my opinion. Still, we are no were near being a liberal democracy.

I'm speaking broadly, and I'm referring more to the nations that United States has considered its strongest allies (NATO members, G7 nations, etc.). Trump's foreign policy, as far as what he has articulated, is that he'd prefer breaking up long-standing political alliances if he can't be a bully and threat countries with whom we have entered into pacts as subordinates, and he'd also prefer to align America's interest with countries who are eager to pay for a chummy relationship with the world's lone superpower. Is it really a good idea to abandon our friends and prostitute our influence to Russia because Vladimir Putin would love to prove to Trump what a nice guy he is? That's the road Trump would like to lead us on. I certainly don't think that makes us any safer.

[Braivo]

15 hours ago, Chilli Dipper said:

If all politicians are pandering, I'll side with the one promising to make my life better over the one promising to make other people's lives worse.

"Free stuff?" Sure, I'll take some. If I don't get it, big deal.

"America's going down the toilet, and it's all the Mexicans'/Muslims'/gays'/unions'/liberals'/China's fault; let's take it out on them?" That attitude goes against my personal values, and what I believe are common American civic values. Frankly, the other side doesn't need to offer me free stuff to vote against that.

They aren't so common when millions of Americans are casting a vote against them. Many more will join once the GE starts. This a revolution that will change the course of our nation forever. There has been a silent majority for years that has watched us give this country away on handout at a time. Giving foreign nations money, fighting useless wars, and giving illegal immigrants welfare. Trump has allowed this silent majority an opportunity to stand up and be heard, and the noise has been thunderous. 30,000 seat arenas jam packed with thousands turned away, record turnout in primaries, and an entirely new conversation being had with even his opponents adopting his positions. 

12 hours ago, Chilli Dipper said:

Bullcrap. This is a man who has absolutely no shame about being the adopted messiah of the white supremacist movement. He wants to blow up the global geopolitical consensus that has been in place since at least the end of the Cold War, and replace it with a diplomacy where America doesn't help you unless you pay up and kiss the ring. A foreign policy platform that he has attached a slogan to which comes with the legacy of those who would have let the rest of the Western world succumb to the forces of fascism, and allow the extermination of Europe's Jewish population to continue unabated, because it was none of our business. That's not how liberal democracies conduct their business, and I'll be damned if we start doing the bidding of any tyrant or authoritarian strongman who knows to butter Trump up.

Donald Trump is already on the wrong side of history, and if your entire campaign has been built on a mountain of bluster and scapegoating, pandering is all you've got.

This actually sounds pretty good, tbh. Put America first, quit enabling other countries, force them to fix their own problems. 

Right now Europe is allowing itself to be exterminated by allowing millions of immigrant invaders into their countries to loot their streets, blow up their airports and theaters, and rape their women. Friends have visited Paris and said you cannot walk safely in the streets without being mobbed by immigrants, things are very bad. Millions in America are watching this happen to Europe and refuse to see it happen here. We will stand up to this, we do not want to see our great country given away to those who wouldn't fight for their own. 

This election goes much deeper than any silly domestic policy like the cost of education, this about the survival of a nation. This election is about exposing the truth that the USA is a puppet to Saudi Arabia, one of the world's richest nations, that has taken zero refugees. These are the real issues that we face, the toughest ones to handle. It is easy to hide behind domestic and social issues because the real ones are hard to deal with, very hard. There is only one person strong enough to take them on. 

[Chilli Dipper]

There is no revolution. There's a plurality of voters who have complained for eight years about Obama taking their freedom who have flocked to a charlatan who realized that crowd doesn't really give a damn about their freedom; they just want the excuse to get mad without any consequences. Now the Republicans are about to be stuck with a candidate who can only secure 40 percent of their own party faithful, because they treat him as a serious threat until it was too late, and the only alternative left standing when they realized their error is as much of an opportunistic poison pill as Trump is. He hasn't even been able to build a majority coalition within the GOP; how is going to build a majority coalition in a general election, especially when minorities and women hate him?

[jamo]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

We are not a liberal democracy.

We are a federal republic. Each state has it's own established government and is tied together with a strong federal government (sadly). Given we have shifted towards being more of a democracy, which is a bad thing in my opinion. Still, we are no were near being a liberal democracy.

"The government of the United States of America is the federal government of the republic of fifty states that constitute the United States, as well as one capital district, and several other territories. The federal government is composed of three distinct branches: legislative, executive, and judicial, whose powers are vested by the U.S. Constitution in the Congress, the President, and the federal courts, including the Supreme Court, respectively. The powers and duties of these branches are further defined by acts of Congress, including the creation of executive departments and courts inferior to the Supreme Court."

 

A federal republic and a liberal democracy can coexist. From Wikipedia:

Quote

A liberal democracy may take various constitutional forms: it may be a constitutional monarchy (Canada, Japan, the United Kingdom) or a constitutional republic (France, India, the United States). It may have a parliamentary system (India, Italy, the United Kingdom), a presidential system (Indonesia, the United States), or a semi-presidential system (France, Taiwan).

 

[rehmwa]

I'd like to add another to my pile of pointless memes.  enjoy

see if you can identify the new one

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Braivo]

35 minutes ago, Chilli Dipper said:

There is no revolution. There's a plurality of voters who have complained for eight years about Obama taking their freedom who have flocked to a charlatan who realized that crowd doesn't really give a damn about their freedom; they just want the excuse to get mad without any consequences. Now the Republicans are about to be stuck with a candidate who can only secure 40 percent of their own party faithful, because they treat him as a serious threat until it was too late, and the only alternative left standing when they realized their error is as much of an opportunistic poison pill as Trump is. He hasn't even been able to build a majority coalition within the GOP; how is going to build a majority coalition in a general election, especially when minorities and women hate him?

Trump has more votes right now than Romney did in the entire 2012 primary season, and we've got 10 states left.

Also, Romney got 52% of the vote while running against half as many contenders as Trump has had to beat. 

And, Romney ran WITH the support of his own party, Trump is running against every conceivable force on the planet, and still winning. 

The latest head to head poll also shows Trump with LEAD in against Clinton. 

[newtogolf]

2 hours ago, Chilli Dipper said:

The cost of higher education is a huge deal to me, because like a lot of people my age who got out of college in the middle of the recession, I'm underwater in student loan debt. I don't think Bernie Sanders can deliver on his promise of free college education, but I do believe he would hard to make sure younger generations won't be saddled with the financial burden my generation has, and it's not right to place that load on people's shoulders while doing what they've been told is necessary to succeed.

I don't think that immigration is the problem conservatives make it out to be; even if I do suppose it so, I believe physical barriers serve as an effective deterrent. We built a massive border fence during the Bush administration, and it hasn't made any significant impact. Instead of realizing that perhaps a different approach to the issue is required to get results, Donald Trump has made doubling down on a proven failure his campaign trademark.

I don't see the successful "I didn't get exactly what I wanted, but I'm pleased with the outcome" endgame for Trump's position. If he doesn't build the wall, his supporters will be furious; if he does build the wall, he's wasted a ton of resources on a white elephant, and he still needs to come up with a stopgap solution for when undocumented migrants inevitably find their way across the border.

The reason tuition sky rocketed is because the democrats forced the Federal Government to guarantee student loans so that more people could go to college.  The colleges and universities knowing that loans could not be defaulted on thanks to the federal government started expanding their schools and increasing tuition costs so they could cash in on the guaranteed loans (same thing happened in the mortgage industry).  

To compound the problem, more kids entered college because they could get student loans and schools started to lower their requirements to attract more students.  Now we have a bunch of students with huge student loans who have degrees that are fairly worthless and want someone to pay them off because they can't find a job.  

If you want free college, imo, you bust your butt and get a scholarship, get a job and save your money, get your parents to pay for it or join the military.  Otherwise, you take out minimal student loans go to a state school for two years and transfer to minimize the costs.  

[rehmwa]

43 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

The reason tuition sky rocketed is because the democrats forced the Federal Government to guarantee student loans so that more people could go to college.  The colleges and universities knowing that loans could not be defaulted on thanks to the federal government started expanding their schools and increasing tuition costs so they could cash in on the guaranteed loans (same thing happened in the mortgage industry).  

To compound the problem, more kids entered college because they could get student loans and schools started to lower their requirements to attract more students.  Now we have a bunch of students with huge student loans who have degrees that are fairly worthless and want someone to pay them off because they can't find a job.  

If you want free college, imo, you bust your butt and get a scholarship, get a job and save your money, get your parents to pay for it or join the military.  Otherwise, you take out minimal student loans go to a state school for two years and transfer to minimize the costs.  

wait, wait wait......so what you are saying is.......subsidies are like throwing money at a product.......and......more money drives up the price of the product.......

So the intent of affordable education (housing) policies resulted in UNaffordable education (housing).......

typical government policy, (the charade of) good intentions that have the EXACT OPPOSITE EFFECT.

I'm continually amazed at how people that get into power constantly fail to understand a simple supply and demand concept.  (I'd also rewrite that to start with  - I'm continually disgusted at how people that VOTE, refuse to acknowledge the obvious concept of supply and demand - if they are under the FALSE delusion that it'll help them more than hurt them.)

[Chilli Dipper]

1 hour ago, rehmwa said:

I'd like to add another to my pile of pointless memes.  enjoy

see if you can identify the new one

 

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't know you could juice a banana.

But I can relate. Even as someone who cares, I'm not looking forward to six more months of this.

[RandallT]

2 hours ago, saevel25 said:

We are a federal republic. Each state has it's own established government and is tied together with a strong federal government (sadly). 

The federal system is pretty genius to me. As I've gotten older, I've realized that people generally don't care about federalism, and they typically have a negative opinion of it (as though it is closely tied today with states' rights/slavery). We are running our country as though the principle is archaic, yet there it sits, in print in the US Constitution.

Do Bernie supporters out there have much regard for the Constitution? I know they don't generally have much regard for capitalism, so I'd think they don't much give a hoot about constitutional principles that would limit a centralized power from overstepping its bounds. 

And when politicians swear an oath on the US Constitution, I always wonder if they are crossing their fingers behind their back, so that they can say later "oh I didn't really mean to uphold THAT part that refers to federalism and checks/balances. That's just quaint stuff we pretend to honor."

Although Trump would get my vote against Clinton, I'm not sure he's put a lot of thought into fitting his policies into the framework of how our federal republic is structured.

4 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

I'm continually amazed at how people that get into power constantly fail to understand a simple supply and demand concept. 

Not just those people. A great line I've heard recently is: "You think college is expensive now? Wait til it's free." 

[Chilli Dipper]

30 minutes ago, RandallT said:

The federal system is pretty genius to me. As I've gotten older, I've realized that people generally don't care about federalism, and they typically have a negative opinion of it (as though it is closely tied today with states' rights/slavery). We are running our country as though the principle is archaic, yet there it sits, in print in the US Constitution.

Do Bernie supporters out there have much regard for the Constitution? I know they don't generally have much regard for capitalism, so I'd think they don't much give a hoot about constitutional principles that would limit a centralized power from overstepping its bounds. 

And when politicians swear an oath on the US Constitution, I always wonder if they are crossing their fingers behind their back, so that they can say later "oh I didn't really mean to uphold THAT part that refers to federalism and checks/balances. That's just quaint stuff we pretend to honor."

Although Trump would get my vote against Clinton, I'm not sure he's put a lot of thought into fitting his policies into the framework of how our federal republic is structured.

Federalism is what it is, and the tug-of-war over its significance will continue long after you and I are gone. (Speaking as a fairly liberal-skewing person who has been compelled to defend the Electoral College in debates among like-minded peers.)

I'd say that Sanders supporters hold the Constitution in high regard, as they interpret it. I'd say the same thing about most Republican voters, which is why the vacancy in the Supreme Court (who has the final say on that interpretation) is such a hot topic. Like you said, though, Trump doesn't really show that he cares how his platform conforms to the document; that's one of the problems with a complete outsider vying for the nation's highest office.

[Elmer]

5 minutes ago, Chilli Dipper said:

Federalism is what it is, and the tug-of-war over its significance will continue long after you and I are gone. (Speaking as a fairly liberal-skewing person who has been compelled to defend the Electoral College in debates among like-minded peers.)

I'd say that Sanders supporters hold the Constitution in high regard, as they interpret it. I'd say the same thing about most Republican voters, which is why the vacancy in the Supreme Court (who has the final say on that interpretation) is such a hot topic. Like you said, though, Trump doesn't really show that he cares how his platform conforms to the document; that's one of the problems with a complete outsider vying for the nation's highest office.

I dont think Trump has ever read the constitution nor does he have any idea what a president does.
He slams Obama for his use of executive orders, yet most of what Trump promises to do would have to come as a result of executive order. This is mainly because I can not see president Trump compelling congress to pass his nonsense plans, especially when it results in the loss of employment for congress.

So far Sanders is the only person addressing the cost of College, the fact that the Federal Govt makes a profit on college loans.
His idea by funding college for Americans is to create the "best educated workforce" in the "best interest" of our country. Many, many other countries do the same. Atleast Sanders is trying to do something in the best interest of this country and move us forward. He has some plans that are targeting not only the working class, but the poor and middle class.

So far Trump talks about how "handsome" he would be as a president!
Cruz is a dumpster fire! has someone who is not a nominee ever picked a VP prior to being elected as a nominee? 

 

https://berniesanders.com/issues/its-time-to-make-college-tuition-free-and-debt-free/

https://berniesanders.com/issues/