Incapable of playing conservatively

[Buckeyebowman]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

In what sense? I don't find much value in that.

The very idea of "laying up" implies that you could have made a different choice, and quite often the "not laying up" choice is going to lead to lower scores, on average.

I'm not sure I agree. I think it depends upon your game. If you're faced with a 200 yard carry over water with a fade, and you don't have that shot, what the hell are you supposed to do? Just smack it in the water because it's the "macho" thing to do?

I think you have to know your own game, realistically, as it exists at the time you're taking that shot. Too many golfers succumb to fantasy!

[saevel25]

12 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

 If you're faced with a 200 yard carry over water with a fade, and you don't have that shot, what the hell are you supposed to do? 

Hit a 200 yard shot with a draw. The odds of ever finding a 2nd shot that requires you to actually hit only a fade is rare. You can play 99% of your shots with one shot shape. 

 

 

[SavvySwede]

5 hours ago, fr0sty said:

To me this means "shooting the lowest score possible", hence my dilemma: To play aggressive enough to not lose focus is to play so aggressive that I get myself into more trouble than I should. I feel like my game is a little on the knife's edge; Too aggressive and I'm hosed, too conservative and I'm likewise hosed and the middle ground is not that big.

To play the best that I can I feel like I need to find a way to play conservative shots "aggressively" or as @DaveP043 said "with specific intent" but I don't know how to internalize that mentally.

The quality of the decision and how well you hit the shot aren't as closely tied as you seem to think.

[newtogolf]

29 minutes ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I'm not sure I agree. I think it depends upon your game. If you're faced with a 200 yard carry over water with a fade, and you don't have that shot, what the hell are you supposed to do? Just smack it in the water because it's the "macho" thing to do?

I think you have to know your own game, realistically, as it exists at the time you're taking that shot. Too many golfers succumb to fantasy!

It's relative to your game.  If you can barely carry 200 yards then that's the over aggressive play, hitting to the edge of the water is aggressive and laying up well shot of the water is the conservative play.  The option you choose is based on your confidence and how out of position the choice leaves you with your next shot.  

I played a par 5 this week that was 571 yards.  The tee shot from the tees we played required you carry the ball at least 240 yards.  If you cleared the water you had a relatively good chance of making a GIR,  If you laid up, getting on in less than 4 would be tough because the water hazard was about 20 yards wide. To be safe you'd want to hit the ball no more than 210 yards which would leave you at least 360 yards to the green on a course with narrow fairways and heavy woods.  

I considered going for it but with the wind in our faces and my max carry at 250 I decided over aggressive was going to end up in the water.  I went aggressive and hit a 3 hybrid right to the edge of the water, if the wind didn't knock it down (as I had hoped it would) I'd have ended up in the water.  The other guys were conservative and laid up much shorter of the water.  I was on the green in 4 and 2 putted, the rest didn't reach the green in less than 5 and scored 7 or higher.  

[WUTiger]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

In what sense? I don't find much value in that.

The very idea of "laying up" implies that you could have made a different choice, and quite often the "not laying up" choice is going to lead to lower scores, on average.

Except when it doesn't. You miss the point of what I'm talking about.

A golfer needs to decide whether to go for the green, or to lay up. Once a golfer decides it's best to lay up, the golfer needs to play the lay-up shot just as he would any other shot. I've seen golfers in a treeline needing to hit a low punch shot back to the fairway. Rather than set up the shot properly, and leave himself a 60-yard shot, the steamed golfer walks up to the ball and hits a left-handed shot back to the fairway, leaving himself a 100-yard approach. A proper set-up would have put him 40 yards closer.

Or, a Par 5 I face a couple of times a year at a neighboring course - 510 yards long from the White tees. The last 100 yards in front of the green is a lake. I can hit a 4W about 230 if it's dead-solid-perfect. Unless I hit my drive of the week, I'm going to end up about 260+ yards out. So, let's say I'm 270 out. ... That means I need to hit a 6i or 7i to get as close to the water as possible without going in. If I just haphazardly slap a shot toward the water, I could end up 140 yards out, or I could pull it into the rough.

Once you decide it's unwise to go for the green, you should still go through your normal shot routine. Both as a caddie and a player, I've seen too many people just quick-slap the ball and hope wonderful things happen. Surprise: wonderful things rarely happen in such cases.

[boogielicious]

8 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I'm not sure I agree. I think it depends upon your game. If you're faced with a 200 yard carry over water with a fade, and you don't have that shot, what the hell are you supposed to do? Just smack it in the water because it's the "macho" thing to do?

I think you have to know your own game, realistically, as it exists at the time you're taking that shot. Too many golfers succumb to fantasy!

You are discussing an extreme situation that doesn't present itself all the time. You want to hit is as close to the hole as you can do safely. If it is all carry, then layup. But if there us a bail out left for right and it gets you much closer to the hole do that. 

The tendency of layup advice is to steer the golfer into a comfort zone. They "feel" they are accurate at 100 yards, so they "think" this is the best distance for them to lay up to. But the stats don't agree. In Lowest Score Wins, Erik and Dave showed the stats of average golfers. They were much better off getting closer to the hole. They scored lower this way. And they used a lot of data, not subjectivity.

There is a long, dog leg right, par 4 at my league course. 410 yards downhill to a landing area with a pond at 270 from the tee. The edge of the water is 140 from the center of the green. If your drive is left off the tee, you may have a 200+ yard shot to the green over that water, with a carry of at least 160. Right, you have a side hill lie.

My old approach from an off tee shot was to layup to the waters edge after a bad tee shot. This left me with at least an 8 iron, more with wind. It wasn't very successful at getting up and down. After reading LSW, my new approach is to get it down there as close as possible. If I was left off the tee, I aim left of the green so I don't put the water in play, but can get to within 20-30 yards of the center of the green. If right, same idea. I take the long carry over water out of play, but still hit a long shot that I know I can do with a 3H or something. Because I'm 20 or 30 from the pin, my pitch shot will give me a much better chance at an up and down. 

That is what Lowest Score Wins discusses.

[iacas]

10 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I'm not sure I agree. I think it depends upon your game. If you're faced with a 200 yard carry over water with a fade, and you don't have that shot, what the hell are you supposed to do? Just smack it in the water because it's the "macho" thing to do?

Nobody's talking about that, though. It's why I asked for clarification. "Lay up" usually means something like "laying up to 100 yards instead of hitting it as close to the green as possible." It often doesn't mean "there's a hazard I can't carry." Obviously I'm not suggesting people try to hit over hazards where they have a 10% chance of success.

That's all.

If you pick up a copy of LSW, you'll see that I'm not saying "always go for it."

[Abu3baid]

10 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I'm not sure I agree. I think it depends upon your game. If you're faced with a 200 yard carry over water with a fade, and you don't have that shot, what the hell are you supposed to do? Just smack it in the water because it's the "macho" thing to do?

I think you have to know your own game, realistically, as it exists at the time you're taking that shot. Too many golfers succumb to fantasy!

I agree, knowing your own game is a key factor in any decision you make!

[Dave2512]

11 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

I'm not sure I agree. I think it depends upon your game. If you're faced with a 200 yard carry over water with a fade, and you don't have that shot, what the hell are you supposed to do? Just smack it in the water because it's the "macho" thing to do?

I think you have to know your own game, realistically, as it exists at the time you're taking that shot. Too many golfers succumb to fantasy!

But there are no lay ups with a 200 yd carry over water and he is talking about laying up. It is what it is with water carries and the only shot choice that makes sense is hit it over the water.  

That said I can't think of any 200 yd hazards directly in the intended line of play. I do play a par 5 where a layup behind water in front of the green is likely the only choice most golfers would have. It's 550 ish and the pond is roughly 80 yds with about 25 feet of closely mown grass that slopes to the water greenside

This is a legit layup hole for all but elite golfers. But it's not really designed for risk/reward because the length it requires  to consider getting home in two or greenside is a 300 yd drive and dead nuts fairway wood with no room to miss left or right. The course markings in the fairway are blue indicating distance to the water. 

[Buckeyebowman]

On 4/30/2016 at 11:25 PM, newtogolf said:

It's relative to your game.  If you can barely carry 200 yards then that's the over aggressive play, hitting to the edge of the water is aggressive and laying up well shot of the water is the conservative play.  The option you choose is based on your confidence and how out of position the choice leaves you with your next shot.  

I played a par 5 this week that was 571 yards.  The tee shot from the tees we played required you carry the ball at least 240 yards.  If you cleared the water you had a relatively good chance of making a GIR,  If you laid up, getting on in less than 4 would be tough because the water hazard was about 20 yards wide. To be safe you'd want to hit the ball no more than 210 yards which would leave you at least 360 yards to the green on a course with narrow fairways and heavy woods.  

I considered going for it but with the wind in our faces and my max carry at 250 I decided over aggressive was going to end up in the water.  I went aggressive and hit a 3 hybrid right to the edge of the water, if the wind didn't knock it down (as I had hoped it would) I'd have ended up in the water.  The other guys were conservative and laid up much shorter of the water.  I was on the green in 4 and 2 putted, the rest didn't reach the green in less than 5 and scored 7 or higher.  

That's kind of what I said, wasn't it? You have to know the state of your own game. If what you know tells you not to go for it, why on earth would you argue?

15 hours ago, boogielicious said:

You are discussing an extreme situation that doesn't present itself all the time. You want to hit is as close to the hole as you can do safely. If it is all carry, then layup. But if there us a bail out left for right and it gets you much closer to the hole do that. 

The tendency of layup advice is to steer the golfer into a comfort zone. They "feel" they are accurate at 100 yards, so they "think" this is the best distance for them to lay up to. But the stats don't agree. In Lowest Score Wins, Erik and Dave showed the stats of average golfers. They were much better off getting closer to the hole. They scored lower this way. And they used a lot of data, not subjectivity.

There is a long, dog leg right, par 4 at my league course. 410 yards downhill to a landing area with a pond at 270 from the tee. The edge of the water is 140 from the center of the green. If your drive is left off the tee, you may have a 200+ yard shot to the green over that water, with a carry of at least 160. Right, you have a side hill lie.

My old approach from an off tee shot was to layup to the waters edge after a bad tee shot. This left me with at least an 8 iron, more with wind. It wasn't very successful at getting up and down. After reading LSW, my new approach is to get it down there as close as possible. If I was left off the tee, I aim left of the green so I don't put the water in play, but can get to within 20-30 yards of the center of the green. If right, same idea. I take the long carry over water out of play, but still hit a long shot that I know I can do with a 3H or something. Because I'm 20 or 30 from the pin, my pitch shot will give me a much better chance at an up and down. 

That is what Lowest Score Wins discusses.

No! I face that very situation every time I play the 16th at Yankee Run! It's a par 5, dogleg right, with a creek down the right side. The hole, and the creek, take a rather sharp bend right about 110 yards from the green. Last time there I busted a really nice drive, and I thought I might reach, or get really close, with a good second shot. I really smoked that 3 wood, but I wound up catching a tree branch and winding up in the creek. So, instead of scoring a 5 or 6, I wound up with an 8!

14 hours ago, iacas said:

Nobody's talking about that, though. It's why I asked for clarification. "Lay up" usually means something like "laying up to 100 yards instead of hitting it as close to the green as possible." It often doesn't mean "there's a hazard I can't carry." Obviously I'm not suggesting people try to hit over hazards where they have a 10% chance of success.

That's all.

If you pick up a copy of LSW, you'll see that I'm not saying "always go for it."

Uhhh! Yeah! That's what I'm talking about! But I guess I'm "nobody"! If there's nothing in the way, yeah! Blast away to get as close to the green as you can. That's not rocket science! But if you're looking at hazards in your way, you'd better have your thinking cap on!

[boogielicious]

8 hours ago, Buckeyebowman said:

That's kind of what I said, wasn't it? You have to know the state of your own game. If what you know tells you not to go for it, why on earth would you argue?

No! I face that very situation every time I play the 16th at Yankee Run! It's a par 5, dogleg right, with a creek down the right side. The hole, and the creek, take a rather sharp bend right about 110 yards from the green. Last time there I busted a really nice drive, and I thought I might reach, or get really close, with a good second shot. I really smoked that 3 wood, but I wound up catching a tree branch and winding up in the creek. So, instead of scoring a 5 or 6, I wound up with an 8!

Uhhh! Yeah! That's what I'm talking about! But I guess I'm "nobody"! If there's nothing in the way, yeah! Blast away to get as close to the green as you can. That's not rocket science! But if you're looking at hazards in your way, you'd better have your thinking cap on!

We agree with you on the types of situations you mentioned above. But some players take the lay up advice for every situation. They play a wide open par 5 and layup with a 5 iron to 100 yards on their second shot because the magazine said to. This is the situation where getting closer to the hole will lower your score.

[DaveP043]

I'm going back to some of the posts that @fr0sty made.  I don't think he was asking for advice as to which shot to select.  He was saying that when he made a choice that wasn't the most aggressive choice available, he seemed to consistently hit poor shots.  So how does a player hit a quality shot, once he's made a choice?  If you choose a "less challenging" shot, how do you maintain focus?  I'm assuming you've gone through all of your choices, evaluated your own abilities and frailties, and made the "right choice," and its not the high-risk high-excitement attention-grabbing choice.  In my mind, every shot needs the same attention to detail, the same focus, precise aim, visualization, all that.  How do you approach these shots?

Again, I try to hit aggressively, no matter whether I'm trying to carry a hazard at the edge of my ability, or whether I've decided to play short of a string of bunkers and hit the fat part of the fairway.  I still pick a specific target, visualize the arc of the ball, hit to a specific spot.  For those who have a pre-shot routine, follow that on the "low-tension" shots just as strictly as on the really demanding shots.

[Dave2512]

I don't know even in risk/reward situations the right shot, the aggressive shot. Is whatever keeps your round heading in the right direction. Final score is the factor or should be in these decisions. This is why we have pre-shot routines so we can approach every shot the same.

I don't have varying conviction and playing with my hair on fire doesn't increase my focus. One shot leads to another we hit and think our way through the course.   Plan the shot practice the shot execute the shot. 

[Golfingdad]

52 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm going back to some of the posts that @fr0sty made.  I don't think he was asking for advice as to which shot to select.  He was saying that when he made a choice that wasn't the most aggressive choice available, he seemed to consistently hit poor shots.  So how does a player hit a quality shot, once he's made a choice?  If you choose a "less challenging" shot, how do you maintain focus?  I'm assuming you've gone through all of your choices, evaluated your own abilities and frailties, and made the "right choice," and its not the high-risk high-excitement attention-grabbing choice.  In my mind, every shot needs the same attention to detail, the same focus, precise aim, visualization, all that.  How do you approach these shots?

Again, I try to hit aggressively, no matter whether I'm trying to carry a hazard at the edge of my ability, or whether I've decided to play short of a string of bunkers and hit the fat part of the fairway.  I still pick a specific target, visualize the arc of the ball, hit to a specific spot.  For those who have a pre-shot routine, follow that on the "low-tension" shots just as strictly as on the really demanding shots.

Yes, I agree.  He's asking for help on execution, not decision making.  And I think your advice has been right on! 

[Dave2512]

Seems like an odd problem for a single digit handicapper to have. Wonder how many of his mishit conservative shots are just the usual misses. Dang near every shot I hit is a miss of varying results not quite what I intended.

Akin to a short approach. We expect to stuff it and toss our hands up if we don't despite an easy GIR. There are always perception flaws in golf. 

[saevel25]

On 4/29/2016 at 2:20 PM, fr0sty said:

If I stand over the ball and select an aggressive line I can execute with decent frequency but if I instead pick a 'safe' or 'high-percentage' shot I up making a sloppy swing and end up worse off than if I had been a tad more aggressive. In the interest of full disclosure, if I take too aggressive a line I end up in worse trouble than either other option as well. Yes, I know this is all in my head, but just because it's a mental problem doesn't mean it isn't real and isn't fixable.

I want to get this right. 

Option 1: An aggressive line, you feel like you can swing aggressive because it's an a aggressive shot?

Option 2: A safer line, you tend to hit it easier and it throws off your swing? 

Why not just swing the same for both? A target line is a target line. The swing shouldn't change for either of them. 

3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Again, I try to hit aggressively, no matter whether I'm trying to carry a hazard at the edge of my ability, or whether I've decided to play short of a string of bunkers and hit the fat part of the fairway.  

^^ This

I do the same. To me easing up or swinging hard is just a decision on the type of shot I want to hit. It has nothing to do with my target lines. For me, I pretty much aim so my shot zone encompasses as much green as possible, erring on the side of less trouble. 

 

[Lihu]

On 4/29/2016 at 0:17 PM, fr0sty said:

Just making something up: Tee Shot. 350yd dogleg left, fairway bunker at the corner, trees left and right (but not overly 'tight'). 210 to fairway bunker, 225 to carry, 255 goes through fairway. Large landing area before bunker. Player's typical driver carry is 215-240.

• Over-Aggressive: Bomb driver left of the bunker to be closest to the green. Swing out of your shoes.
• Aggressive: Try to carry bunker, aim at right edge.
• Conservative: Driver/3w at right side of fairway to stay away from bunker.
• Safe: 6i to stay short of bunkers.

Taken in turn the four approaches seem to produce:

• Over-Aggressive: 7/10 lost ball, 1/10 Jordan Spieth
• Aggressive: 5/10 in fairway, 1/10 trap, 1/10 trees, 3/10 rough
• Conservative: 3/10 in fairway, 4/10 in trees, 3/10 rough
• Safe: 4/10 in fairway, 1/10 topped, 3/10 right, 3/10 left

 

On 4/29/2016 at 1:31 PM, saevel25 said:

Aggressive. If you pull it the tendency is to hit it farther. Everything your probably ok. 

He didn't really state what was beyond the trees past the fairway on the right? I just assumed it was bad news. . .

[saevel25]

4 minutes ago, Lihu said:

 

He didn't really state what was beyond the trees past the fairway on the right? I just assumed it was bad news. . .

Unless it's a 90 degree dogleg you typically get more room the further left you go. I presume 255 end of fairway is if you hit it down the middle. It could easily be 280-300 if you cut the corner more.