Brexit - Leave or Remain

[rehmwa]

Leave or stay, I'm glad our Brit friends have the option to decide for themselves.  Whatever way they choose, I hope it works to the positive.

I've always thought Germany would leave first as they are being forced to pay for the entitlements of so many broke countries so far.....

[Gunther]

Been watching the returns.  50.1 to 49.9, at this point.  I've begun to make my assessment based on the moron Brits I've heard arguing to Remain.  Mostly they talk about short-term concerns around trade deals, blah, blah.  Great Britain is a powerful force, it will not take long to re-establish those agreements, etc.  It's the fear the Remain socialists are pushing, to great effect.  

Big cities going for Remain while the smaller towns going for Leave.  Very similar to here:  low information, but possibly well-educated, "good intentioned" people thinking they are saving the world.  How little they know.

Go Leave!  Somewhere common sense finally has to win.

[RandallT]

I've been watching the BBC live feed. Remarkable similarities with our voting patterns. Urban, elite, media, young, academia, and minorities bond together to push for bigger government. Other than London, most of England and Wales is going for "Leave." Scotland/Northern Ireland going for "Remain," but not enough to make up the difference perhaps. It's a 462,000 vote lead right now (51.x to 48.x), with over half the vote counted. Could still go either way though. 

It says a lot that common people have no faith in the elite that they don't even fear the scare-mongering that has gone on with the financial markets. Even if the scare-mongering turns out to be true (the pound is dropping fast now), I think the people will be like "so what?" They seem to think it's better than the alternative, since they don't trust their leadership whatsoever anymore.

Why don't the elites in any country ever listen to the people? Do they not care until the protesters reach 50%? Up until a movement hits 50%, it seems like ruling elites simply vilify the opposition and try to make them look like ignorant yokels.

I find it a hopeful message for humanity, as there's little more soul-crushing than authoritarian control by some nameless, faceless bureaucracy (which is my impression of the EU).

Edit: Dow futures down 600 right now. Whew. Nigel Farage declared victory... but it seems way to early at the moment. It's still tight, and I see no finality. Will be interesting to see the result in the morning.

[Buckeyebowman]

15 hours ago, paininthenuts said:

Sorry, I know this has nothing to do with golf, and I very much hope the mods don't remove it. 

Today is one of the biggest days in UK history. As I am sure you have heard, we have a referendum on leaving the EU today. As Americans, can you imagine having a third party making most of you laws, and all of your regulations. Can you imagine your country having to give a third party a massive sum of money every year, only to get 40% of it back, and then be told what to spend it on. Worst of all, can you imagine having to let anyone into your country from 27 other countries, and then allowing them to settle even if they can't speak your language. The EU in Brussels employs over 10,000 people who earn more than our own prime minister, and  occupies a premises the size of a town. It is as corrupt as the Mafia, and prevents the UK from trading properly with countries outside the EU.

The good news is that most people over the age of 40 have some understanding of politics, and will vote OUT, but unfortunately many younger people are a little naive and have fallen foul to the governments threats. The Scots will also vote IN, but to be honest they aren't the brightest stars in the sky. It's going to be very close, so please give us a minutes thought, and keep your fingers crossed for the LEAVE campaign.

 

 

I'm hoping you do vote "out", despite the hand wringing of the more PC of your brethren. Anyone besides me remember Vaclav Havel of the Czech Republic saying they didn't know whether or not they wanted to join the EU concerning their trade policies? Don't remember whether they eventually did or not, but there are valid issues there to be considered.

When you get right down to it, this cuts very close to some of the issues that cause the Civil War here in America. The northern states were much greater in population than the southern, so, those states had more sway in our form of government. Laws were passed that required southern growers shipping their cotton to northern textile mills to use American shipping only, who proceeded to gouge the southerners when French and British shipping was available at much less cost.

I imagine the EU's trade constraints upon Great Britain are much greater, and more complex, than that.

I once heard a great man say, "When in doubt, vote for FREEDOM!" Let's not have Wat Tyler forgotten!

[Chilli Dipper]

Looking forward to the logic bomb of "Britain exits the EU on the backs of right-wing populism; the hard-right blames the pro-EU government for the recession that was forewarned as a consequence of leaving the EU, and makes staggering political gains" that's about to unfold in the upcoming months.

[paininthenuts]

Yipppeee, we have our own independence day. We are out of the most corrupt and vile organisation in the world. Yes, things will get worse before they get better, and only a foll would have thought otherwise. We are the 5th biggest economy in the world, and if we can't make it alone, who in the EU can? I honestly believe that British electorate would have put up with the bureaucracy, the financial outlay, and even the ridiculous regulations. What we couldn't accept is the open border policy. We are a small country creaking at the seams, and we need to get the head count down. As a very large country, it is difficult for the U.S to understand this, but believe me, we are are to to sink, there are so many people here.

[chriswuk]

5 hours ago, RandallT said:

It says a lot that common people have no faith in the elite that they don't even fear the scare-mongering that has gone on with the financial markets. Even if the scare-mongering turns out to be true (the pound is dropping fast now), I think the people will be like "so what?" They seem to think it's better than the alternative, since they don't trust their leadership whatsoever anymore.

 

This quote really makes me laugh, if the people "don't trust their leadership whatsoever anymore" why have they just voted to give that same leadership more power than they had under the EU? This doesn't make any sense and is quite ironic.

As I've said in my previous posts, I voted to remain for reasons that made sense to me, knowing that this is going to have a financial effect on me in some of the most important years of my career (i'm 24 now). I guess I just have to hope for the best, and that Boris Johnson and co actually have a plan for what to do next (they haven't actually stated any plans during their campaign other than "take back control".

Congratulations to the leave campaign, I really hope you prove me wrong and that the future is bright and great. I will happily eat my words and be thankful, but for now we wait (with a devalued pound and crashing market)

[nevets88]

Is that right about 17m voted? I thought the population was 65m, take away ineligible voters, 20m say, 45m, only about 1/3 voted? I must be reading it wrong. 

[Abu3baid]

11 minutes ago, nevets88 said:

Is that right about 17m voted? I thought the population was 65m, take away ineligible voters, 20m say, 45m, only about 1/3 voted? I must be reading it wrong. 

17m voted to leave while 16m voted to stay roughly speaking.

[Silent]

HOW AGES VOTED
(YouGov poll)
18-24: 75% Remain
25-49: 56% Remain
50-64: 44% Remain
65+: 39% Remain

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/eu-referendum-uks-youngest-voters-11518690

 

This says a lot in my opinion. The majority of Brexit voters won't even live long enough to see all the consequenses, while the majority of the people who will actually be there in the future voted to Remain.

[Jeremie Boop]

26 minutes ago, Silent said:

HOW AGES VOTED
(YouGov poll)
18-24: 75% Remain
25-49: 56% Remain
50-64: 44% Remain
65+: 39% Remain

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/eu-referendum-uks-youngest-voters-11518690

 

This says a lot in my opinion. The majority of Brexit voters won't even live long enough to see all the consequenses, while the majority of the people who will actually be there in the future voted to Remain.

What that really shows me is that most people that were around in those countries *as adults* prior to the EU decided that it was better without it. They would be the ones I expect to know better whether it was a good or bad thing.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Jeremie Boop

[boogielicious]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/23/markets-live-will-sterling-surge-or-slump-as-the-eu-referendum-c/

Quote

UK now poorer than France as pound hits 30-year low and FTSE 100 drops 5pc following British vote to leave EU

 

[Silent]

21 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

What that really shows me is that most people that were around in those countries *as adults* prior to the EU decided that it was better without it. They would be the ones I expect to know better whether it was a good or bad thing.

Then I'm guessing their memory isn't that clear, which might again be a result of their age :P

But seriously, that would be strange jump. Prior EU is like 30 years ago, and the 'EU light' is there since 1973 even. Since than the living standard is better, there's less unemployment, less criminality, no war inside those borders, better travel arrangements for themselves...

In this particular case mostly the oldies voted for a dramatic future change, while the young ones will have to deal with mostly.

[Jeremie Boop]

31 minutes ago, Silent said:

Then I'm guessing their memory isn't that clear, which might again be a result of their age :P

But seriously, that would be strange jump. Prior EU is like 30 years ago, and the 'EU light' is there since 1973 even. Since than the living standard is better, there's less unemployment, less criminality, no war inside those borders, better travel arrangements for themselves...

In this particular case mostly the oldies voted for a dramatic future change, while the young ones will have to deal with mostly.

I guess if things are that much better the question is why did this come about at all? I confess pretty much complete ignorance about the whole situation, but typically if things are good the people don't vote to change it.

[taxgolf]

I wonder what it will bring. I think it's a stupid decission. Having said that: will things change? We have big multinationals all over the world. Economy's are so much condemned to each other. Does Scotland want to leave Brittain? Northen Ireland? When will the negotiations start? Who will lead them? Does the British Parlement have any saying in this? Who will call upon article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty first? What about  the power of EU judges and limiting the free movement of workers, potentially in breach of the UK's treaty obligations?  A long, hard road of negotiations between the UK and EU beckons although it is unclear when this process - likely to take years - will begin.

I absolutely do not know what will happen next. I think it is an illusion that a leave will resolve all the UK problems. It won't. But it seems clear that the EU has to reform. 

 

my 2 eurocents or penny's. 

[newtogolf]

A big reason for them leaving the EU was Merkel's quota system for accepting Syrian refugees.  The UK will endure some pain as it's unlikely the EU will be as easy on the UK as it was on Norway.  If the UK becomes an EEA member it will still have favorable trade benefits with the EU, but better control over their currency and borders.  

[Silent]

7 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

I guess if things are that much better the question is why did this come about at all? I confess pretty much complete ignorance about the whole situation, but typically if things are good the people don't vote to change it.

I think that question has too many answers. And actually that's exactly the problem. A lot of people when experiencing a problem want to blame a particular thing, since that's the most easy thing to do. I'm not rich? Blame the EU. I pay taxes? Blame the EU. I'm not happy with my job, or have troubles finding one? Blame the EU. I can't buy a bigger house? Blame the EU. 

If it wasn't the EU some people think they can blame, it would be something else. Blame the immigrants. Or blame the muslims. Nothing works better than a common 'enemy'. I see the same thing happening in Holland with the populist party here. At first the common enemy they were trying to create was 'the Euro', that was the cause for some people's missery. Than it was the Eastern European people coming here. Now for some time it's the people from Syria running away from war. And starting today it will be a Nexit (Netherlands - exit EU) probably.

It's a simple fact that Europe pre-EU had it much worse; unstable, two wars in quite recent history, less standard of life, more unemployment etc. There might be very legimitate reasons to vote for a Brexit, but old people voting in favour because they saw pre-EU was better is not one of them.

[saevel25]

7 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

I guess if things are that much better the question is why did this come about at all? I confess pretty much complete ignorance about the whole situation, but typically if things are good the people don't vote to change it.

Bunch of right wing thinking people with an obsession with nationalism want to take Britain back to the old days of drinking scotch and looking down on the rest of Europe. (sarcasm )

Here are some demographics.  

-More education wanted to stay, less education wanted to leave
-Those with more median income wanted remain, those with less wanted to leave
-Younger wanted to remain, older wanted to leave
-Laborers wanted to leave, managers wanted to remain
-Conservatives wanted to leave, Labour party wanted to leave, Liberal democrats wanted to remain. 

Just now, newtogolf said:

A big reason for them leaving the EU was Merkel's quota system for accepting Syrian refugees.  The UK will endure some pain as it's unlikely the EU will be as easy on the UK as it was on Norway.  If the UK becomes an EEA member it will still have favorable trade benefits with the EU, but better control over their currency and borders.  

This probably has a lot more to do with jobs and money versus Syrian Refugees. I think the Syrian Refugees just gave them more ammo rather than being a primary reason. 

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/05/27/why-would-the-uk-want-to-leave-the-eu.html