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kpaulhus

I am playing in the US Mid-AM qualifier, but I need your help.

Note: This thread is 1134 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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2 minutes ago, iacas said:

So? He is well known. Are you insinuating the same thing?

Not at all.  I'm simply saying that the post made by @Pendragon is fair and reasonable based on the information he had at hand, and without having any real knowledge of the individual.

 

 

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46 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Let's face it, if it were anyone other than someone well known on this site, the question would have been raised long ago.

You're almost certainly right, but that doesn't make it right.  The conclusions people jump to about guys on here that are not well known are equally unfair.

35 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Not at all.  I'm simply saying that the post made by @Pendragon is fair and reasonable based on the information he had at hand, and without having any real knowledge of the individual.

I suppose ... But it still falls squarely in the category of "if you don't have anything nice to say ..."

What's the purpose of a post like that?  What does @Pendragon or anybody else on here gain from it?

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3 hours ago, Pendragon said:

While many here are applauding Kyle for his efforts in this event, the reality is, as bkuehn1952 pointed out earlier, that he really was in a bit over his head here. The fact that he finished 40th out of the 43 that tried to qualify last Monday in Fayetteville pretty much tells us all we need to know. I'm sure this was a great learning experience for Kyle, but there were clearly warning signs noticeable as he approached the qualifier.

As one who's been the chairman of the handicap Committee at my club for the past 5 years, I've never seen anyone's index drop from 8.6 to 2.7 in just 60 days...not even close. A reduction such as that can only be described as miraculous, almost unbelievable. A check with my regional golf association confirms that description. But then, after this amazingly impressive improvement which allowed him to qualify to play in the U.S. Mid-Am, Kyle has played quite poorly since then, to say the least. In his past 20 posted scores, 14 of which were at his home course, 15 were in the 80's or higher, culminated by his 88 in the Mid-Am qualifier last Monday.   

What's my point? Who knows? But every year we see a bunch of guys with low handicaps shooting scores in the 80's and 90's in events where we'd expect to see much lower scores than that. I'm sure that all of them are good guys...and, at least at their home clubs, good players...but perhaps they just don't know their limitations.       

Fair. That's all I can say, since you are making this post on speculation, and the fact that a lot of guys do post low scores to play top tier courses that they normally wouldn't get to play.

As someone who is also a 2 index, we can golf anytime if you'd like to visit. You don't just get to a 2 index by "posting" scores. You might have noticed that 2 of my lowest rounds (INDEX NOT ACTUAL SCORE) were not at my home course. I shot a 67 at a very easy golf course. No question. However making an albatross, eagle, and 4 birdies in one round of golf is not easy, no matter how easy the golf course is. Let it be known that I have been a student of Evolvr working on my swing for the last 6 months. Its very easy to fi one hitch in someone's swing and see instant results. No question about that. 

Last night I shot 79 from the 7,003 yards on a 142 slope, 74.4 rating. It was a 3.7 differential. I play a hard golf course on a daily basis, so not breaking 80 often isn't a stretch. Its very possible to not break 80 often and still be a 3 index.  

 

49 minutes ago, Pendragon said:

Hey, I'm just pointing out facts. It just seems curious that a guy who's been fluctuating between a 7 and a 9 handicap for most of the past year miraculously jumps to a 3 (2.7 index) in 60 days...then, once he's reached his goal, all of a sudden he has a hard time breaking 80, even on his home course, and beats all of 3 guys at the qualifier. It just seems a bit curious. 

 

 

Well, if you had known my home course had shut down GHIN posting from October to April due to a bunker renovation you would know I was well below a 7 index in January this year. Really, getting from a 5 to a 3 wasn't crazy. It only takes a few good rounds to do so. 19 out of 50 guys broke 80. That's less than 50% of the field. If you read my post, I had two bad holes. A triple on a par 4 where nobody saw my ball down by the green, resulting in a drop and then finding the original ball, and a 191 yd par 3 where I took an 8. Make par on those two holes and I shoot 80 and finish 19th....and you don't even question my round. 

24 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Not at all.  I'm simply saying that the post made by @Pendragon is fair and reasonable based on the information he had at hand, and without having any real knowledge of the individual.

 

 

Real knowledge of an individual goes a long way. I post my scores on GHIN, USHandicap.com, and GameGolf. Its not hard to google my name and see what I shoot. Remember, an Index is a measure of your potential, not your average so not breaking 80 all the time is not exactly a good measure.

There is a popular thread now on "What is a scratch golfer" maybe we need another on "What does a 2.7 index really shoot"

 

Next Friday-Sunday is my Club Championship. 7,001 yards. 142 slope. 74.4 rating. PM me your phone number and I will text you my scores by day. I probably will shoot 78-83, because, that is what a 3 index normally shoots at my course. Im not claiming to be scratch or a + handicap. The guys that shot par or under at the Mid Am Qualifier are all + golfers. 

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9 minutes ago, kpaulhus said:

Fair. That's all I can say, since you are making this post on speculation, and the fact that a lot of guys do post low scores to play top tier courses that they normally wouldn't get to play.

As someone who is also a 2 index, we can golf anytime if you'd like to visit. You don't just get to a 2 index by "posting" scores. You might have noticed that 2 of my lowest rounds (INDEX NOT ACTUAL SCORE) were not at my home course. I shot a 67 at a very easy golf course. No question. However making an albatross, eagle, and 4 birdies in one round of golf is not easy, no matter how easy the golf course is. Let it be known that I have been a student of Evolvr working on my swing for the last 6 months. Its very easy to fi one hitch in someone's swing and see instant results. No question about that. 

Last night I shot 79 from the 7,003 yards on a 142 slope, 74.4 rating. It was a 3.7 differential. I play a hard golf course on a daily basis, so not breaking 80 often isn't a stretch. Its very possible to not break 80 often and still be a 3 index.  

 

Well, if you had known my home course had shut down GHIN posting from October to April due to a bunker renovation you would know I was well below a 7 index in January this year. Really, getting from a 5 to a 3 wasn't crazy. It only takes a few good rounds to do so. 19 out of 50 guys broke 80. That's less than 50% of the field. If you read my post, I had two bad holes. A triple on a par 4 where nobody saw my ball down by the green, resulting in a drop and then finding the original ball, and a 191 yd par 3 where I took an 8. Make par on those two holes and I shoot 80 and finish 19th....and you don't even question my round. 

Real knowledge of an individual goes a long way. I post my scores on GHIN, USHandicap.com, and GameGolf. Its not hard to google my name and see what I shoot. Remember, an Index is a measure of your potential, not your average so not breaking 80 all the time is not exactly a good measure.

There is a popular thread now on "What is a scratch golfer" maybe we need another on "What does a 2.7 index really shoot"

 

Next Friday-Sunday is my Club Championship. 7,001 yards. 142 slope. 74.4 rating. PM me your phone number and I will text you my scores by day. I probably will shoot 78-83, because, that is what a 3 index normally shoots at my course. Im not claiming to be scratch or a + handicap. The guys that shot par or under at the Mid Am Qualifier are all + golfers. 

You'll note that both the tournament thread and the handicap index threads are mine, so I understand both.  I also play enough tournament golf that I get it, because I post my fair share of mid-to-upper 80 rounds myself

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3 minutes ago, David in FL said:

You'll note that both the tournament thread and the handicap index threads are mine, so I understand both.  I also play enough tournament golf that I get it, because I post my fair share of mid-to-upper 80 rounds myself

Outside of an annual member guest and 3 club championships (usually in the 2nd flight) this was my first real USGA event. I expect to play much better tournament golf going forward. 

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Thanks @kpaulhus for the thread and the story - I've been reading even though I didn't feel I had much to contribute. Do you think that participating in the thread helped your preparation/performance? If so how?

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1 hour ago, alleztom said:

Thanks @kpaulhus for the thread and the story - I've been reading even though I didn't feel I had much to contribute. Do you think that participating in the thread helped your preparation/performance? If so how?

For sure. I don't think I would have prepaired as well or knew what to expect walking up to the first tee. There is a lot of valuable tournament experience ITT. 

Obviously having set expectations of not qualifying made it easier and wasn't a disappointment as well. Reading the tournament prep section of LSW was a big plus, too. I don't typically eat snacks during a round, but having a fruit bar after 12 holes kept my energy up walking a very hilly course. 

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7 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

I suppose ... But it still falls squarely in the category of "if you don't have anything nice to say ..."

What's the purpose of a post like that?  What does @Pendragon or anybody else on here gain from it?

It reeks of "I don't actually know for sure, I'm just saying you cheated."

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13 hours ago, Pendragon said:

While many here are applauding Kyle for his efforts in this event, the reality is, as bkuehn1952 pointed out earlier, that he really was in a bit over his head here. The fact that he finished 40th out of the 43 that tried to qualify last Monday in Fayetteville pretty much tells us all we need to know. I'm sure this was a great learning experience for Kyle, but there were clearly warning signs noticeable as he approached the qualifier.

As one who's been the chairman of the handicap Committee at my club for the past 5 years, I've never seen anyone's index drop from 8.6 to 2.7 in just 60 days...not even close. A reduction such as that can only be described as miraculous, almost unbelievable. A check with my regional golf association confirms that description. But then, after this amazingly impressive improvement which allowed him to qualify to play in the U.S. Mid-Am, Kyle has played quite poorly since then, to say the least. In his past 20 posted scores, 14 of which were at his home course, 15 were in the 80's or higher, culminated by his 88 in the Mid-Am qualifier last Monday.   

What's my point? Who knows? But every year we see a bunch of guys with low handicaps shooting scores in the 80's and 90's in events where we'd expect to see much lower scores than that. I'm sure that all of them are good guys...and, at least at their home clubs, good players...but perhaps they just don't know their limitations.       

I know what you mean, some guys that have a hot couple weeks and shave their handicaps in half.  Then they are not capable of maintaing it. But thats not always true. I went from a 3 or 4 handicap to +3 in less than a year. I qualified for the US amateur at Cherry Hills the following summer. Some guys just make sudden jumps. I shot 82 in us open qualifying earlier this year - doesn't mean I'm not a good player. Some people just have bad rounds. We are amateurs, after all. 

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I believe I have played the most rounds with Kyle on the board here (last year in Newport and this year in Orlando). I have absolutely no trouble believing Kyle's level. I was kinda stoked his HCP finally got to where I thought it should be. Kyle is also a great clutch putter, BTW.

OT: I do believe in general folks who have as much distance as Kyle or @saevel25 do are always a couple of hair from flipping the switch and playing at a high level.   

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12 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

I believe I have played the most rounds with Kyle on the board here (last year in Newport and this year in Orlando). I have absolutely no trouble believing Kyle's level. I was kinda stoked his HCP finally got to where I thought it should be. Kyle is also a great clutch putter, BTW.

OT: I do believe in general folks who have as much distance as Kyle or @saevel25 do are always a couple of hair from flipping the switch and playing at a high level.   

One that about hitting it a long way that can be a pain is that if you do hit it off line it ends up being WAY offline. Speaking from my own experience of course. I realize as you get better those offline shots get fewer and further between but they still can add a significant amount of strokes in very short time. This tends to be what causes my handicap to stay where it is.

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16 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

One that about hitting it a long way that can be a pain is that if you do hit it off line it ends up being WAY offline. Speaking from my own experience of course. I realize as you get better those offline shots get fewer and further between but they still can add a significant amount of strokes in very short time. This tends to be what causes my handicap to stay where it is.

Yes, but hope you don't take offense, they also have very mature swings compared to yours.

 

EDIT: Let's take this discussion elsewhere. Thread is not about distance vs. HCP.

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Congratulations on competing and thanks for sharing your experience with us on this thread.  It's the closest I'll ever get to playing in a qualifier and it has been really interesting following your progress.  Looking forward to hearing about the next one!

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18 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

You're almost certainly right, but that doesn't make it right.  The conclusions people jump to about guys on here that are not well known are equally unfair.

I suppose ... But it still falls squarely in the category of "if you don't have anything nice to say ..."

What's the purpose of a post like that?  What does @Pendragon or anybody else on here gain from it?

Clearly, I have nothing to gain by questioning Kyle's index. But his improvement from having an index of 8.6 on May 1 to having one of 2.7 on July 1 is truly remarkable. Combine that with the fact that, since his 2.7 index  went into effect on 7/1, Kyle has been able to play to it just once in the 18 rounds he's posted since then, it truly boggles the mind. Based on the most recent scores that Kyle has posted, his index is trending to 4.5 (that would be a course handicap of 5 at his club), and will likely trend higher than that as soon as he posts a couple more rounds. 

I asked Jim Cowan, who's been the Director of Course Rating and Handicapping for the Northern California Golf Association (NCGA) since 1995, how likely it would be for someone to go from an 8.6 index to a 2.7 in 2 months, Mr. Cowan's response follows:

"I have never come across odds for the movement of a handicap in one direction or the other. Certainly the movement you are describing is almost unprecedented except in circumstances where an injury is involved (i.e., going up quickly due to an injury/illness, going down due to recovery from an injury/illness). The USGA asks that when the NCGA conducts such a qualifier, that we submit the names of any golfers that fail to score within a certain number of strokes of the course rating. The USGA calls for a pretty generous buffer to account for golfers that may have had a particularly bad day, but that buffer may not extend up to 88 in this instance. If the score is outside the buffer, he may receive a letter from the USGA, in effect, questioning the authenticity of his handicap."

It's quite possible that the Arkansas Golf Association has different criteria than the NCGA does regarding scores posted during a USGA qualifier, but it'll be interesting to see if Kyle receives a letter, as described above, from the USGA at some point in the future. It would seem likely that a score 14 strokes over the course rating might warrant closer scrutiny. As the handicap chairman at my club, my committee and I are always looking for anomalies that warrant our investigation, although in most cases we're looking at situations where posted scores are higher than would seem reasonable. Rarely do we see any of our members posting scores lower than expected, but it does happen once in a while.

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I for one have done the similar. That is the nature of my game. I have the long game to keep my score lower. My short game and putting can go hay wire. I've had stretches where I had about 5-6 rounds with double digit differentials. Then I'll go on a 5-6 round streak mid to low singe digit differentials.

Clearly there are people who are streaky golfers. especially those who choose to try to improver their game with lessons. 

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34 minutes ago, Pendragon said:

The USGA calls for a pretty generous buffer to account for golfers that may have had a particularly bad day, but that buffer may not extend up to 88 in this instance. If the score is outside the buffer, he may receive a letter from the USGA, in effect, questioning the authenticity of his handicap."

image.png.7b9b9deac8d12a5477e16213843fdbc8.png

James McNeal should definitely be checking his mail regularly...

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1 hour ago, Pendragon said:

Clearly, I have nothing to gain by questioning Kyle's index. But his improvement from having an index of 8.6 on May 1 to having one of 2.7 on July 1 is truly remarkable. Combine that with the fact that, since his 2.7 index  went into effect on 7/1, Kyle has been able to play to it just once in the 18 rounds he's posted since then, it truly boggles the mind. Based on the most recent scores that Kyle has posted, his index is trending to 4.5 (that would be a course handicap of 5 at his club), and will likely trend higher than that as soon as he posts a couple more rounds. 

I asked Jim Cowan, who's been the Director of Course Rating and Handicapping for the Northern California Golf Association (NCGA) since 1995, how likely it would be for someone to go from an 8.6 index to a 2.7 in 2 months, Mr. Cowan's response follows:

"I have never come across odds for the movement of a handicap in one direction or the other. Certainly the movement you are describing is almost unprecedented except in circumstances where an injury is involved (i.e., going up quickly due to an injury/illness, going down due to recovery from an injury/illness). The USGA asks that when the NCGA conducts such a qualifier, that we submit the names of any golfers that fail to score within a certain number of strokes of the course rating. The USGA calls for a pretty generous buffer to account for golfers that may have had a particularly bad day, but that buffer may not extend up to 88 in this instance. If the score is outside the buffer, he may receive a letter from the USGA, in effect, questioning the authenticity of his handicap."

It's quite possible that the Arkansas Golf Association has different criteria than the NCGA does regarding scores posted during a USGA qualifier, but it'll be interesting to see if Kyle receives a letter, as described above, from the USGA at some point in the future. It would seem likely that a score 14 strokes over the course rating might warrant closer scrutiny. As the handicap chairman at my club, my committee and I are always looking for anomalies that warrant our investigation, although in most cases we're looking at situations where posted scores are higher than would seem reasonable. Rarely do we see any of our members posting scores lower than expected, but it does happen once in a while.

Ok.

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Note: This thread is 1134 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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