First group out - responsibility to play quickly?

[GolfLug]

22 minutes ago, David in FL said:

One of the local clubs here does it right.  On Sat and Sun they schedule an 8:30 shotgun that anyone can get into.  They shotgun off holes 14-7.  Anyone who wants to play earlier can do so, but must clear the 7th tee prior to 8:30.  That means that in order to get one of the coveted early times, you need to commit to a 3-hour pace.  Those who blow it, blow it for the entire course, and know that they'll lose that privilege.  No one blows it!

^^This is really good. I will suggest this to our club Pro.

[DeadMan]

I'm going to go against the grain and possibly be a bit unpopular with my opinion.

In my opinion, the first group out absolutely has a responsibility to play fast. And by fast, I mean under 4 hours. The first group will be the fastest group of the day, and it will only be slower behind them. A pace that isn't fast is going to mess things up for the rest of the day. Personally, whenever I play the first tee time of the day, I always expect that I will get around in under 4 hours. It's a matter of courtesy to everybody else playing that day, because you are setting the pace of play for everybody who comes after you.

Now, it's also the responsibility of everybody on the course to play quickly, and the course itself is responsible for ensuring fast play. But I do think that the first tee time out should be done quickly.

[Golfingdad]

24 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

I'm going to go against the grain and possibly be a bit unpopular with my opinion.

In my opinion, the first group out absolutely has a responsibility to play fast. And by fast, I mean under 4 hours. The first group will be the fastest group of the day, and it will only be slower behind them. A pace that isn't fast is going to mess things up for the rest of the day. Personally, whenever I play the first tee time of the day, I always expect that I will get around in under 4 hours. It's a matter of courtesy to everybody else playing that day, because you are setting the pace of play for everybody who comes after you.

Now, it's also the responsibility of everybody on the course to play quickly, and the course itself is responsible for ensuring fast play. But I do think that the first tee time out should be done quickly.

Not sure why you'd think that would be against the grain or unpopular. :)

[DaveP043]

19 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

In my opinion, the first group out absolutely has a responsibility to play fast. And by fast, I mean under 4 hours.

This is where many of us will disagree with one another, in defining "fast", or even "reasonable."  To me, 4 hours falls into the "reasonable" category, while times around 3:30 or so seem "fast."   On some courses, or in some cultures, reasonable gets closer to the 3:30 duration, or as long as 4:15, depending on too many factors to even list here.  I'm in agreement with @DeadMan, the first group should feel a responsibility to every one of the golfers behind them, a responsibility to finish in a reasonable time.  But I'm not one who would ever consider a 4 hour pace to be "fast."

[Groucho Valentine]

If there is nobody in front of the group, if you're not done in under 4 hours, i would consider that slow. But I've lightend some on slow play in recent years due to playing with so many college players (which for some reason are all infuriatingly slow these days). Ive just gotten used to 5 hour rounds. But first group out? Yeah-get your ass moving. 

Edited July 21, 2016 by Groucho Valentine

[ZappyAd]

We walked off at about 10:30 when we realised it was looking like 5+ hrs.  That's when I started thinking this is crazy to impact the whole course like this from the get go.  

It seems to me it is down to the club to sort it out as ultimately it affects them.  I certainly wouldn't take a guest there on a Saturday or recommend it to a friend because after talking with some of the groups behind us it sounded like it happens most weekends!   How that situation can persist is a bit of a mystery to me but maybe there is a reason.

 

[DeadMan]

9 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

This is where many of us will disagree with one another, in defining "fast", or even "reasonable."  To me, 4 hours falls into the "reasonable" category, while times around 3:30 or so seem "fast."   On some courses, or in some cultures, reasonable gets closer to the 3:30 duration, or as long as 4:15, depending on too many factors to even list here.  I'm in agreement with @DeadMan, the first group should feel a responsibility to every one of the golfers behind them, a responsibility to finish in a reasonable time.  But I'm not one who would ever consider a 4 hour pace to be "fast."

Yeah, I'm coming at it from public courses in my area, where anything under 4 hours is blazing fast. And there have been times in the past on here where posters have said anything under 4 hours is crazy fast. Realistically, the first group should play as fast as they can. Which should probably be well under 4 hours, especially with carts.

[DaveP043]

3 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

Yeah, I'm coming at it from public courses in my area, where anything under 4 hours is blazing fast. And there have been times in the past on here where posters have said anything under 4 hours is crazy fast. Realistically, the first group should play as fast as they can. Which should probably be well under 4 hours, especially with carts.

This is why I mentioned a range of times as bring "reasonable."  The following is from the website of Panmure Golf Club, which is in Scotland near Carnoustie:

Quote

The Club would expect a fourball to complete a round in three and a half hours. Visitors are reminded that in June and July it is possible to complete a round having started by 6:30pm. 

I remember the Old Course suggests that the MAXIMUM time should be under 4 hours.  Both of those are for four players, on foot.  There's really no valid reason that golf played riding should take any longer than that.  I know it does, but it shouldn't.

10 minutes ago, ZappyAd said:

It seems to me it is down to the club to sort it out as ultimately it affects them.  I certainly wouldn't take a guest there on a Saturday or recommend it to a friend because after talking with some of the groups behind us it sounded like it happens most weekends!   How that situation can persist is a bit of a mystery to me but maybe there is a reason.

This is one situation where I think that websites like GolfNow and GolfAdvisor could have some influence.  Post your experience, and write about the club's response (or lack of it).  People do use those reviews when they're deciding where to play.

Of course, those first couple of groups might include the owners of the course, and there's absolutely nothing that'll happen to change things if that's the case.

[Zekez]

Responding to OP.  How does a Club that has memberships NOT have rangers on the course to speed up the slow groups?

[Slice of Life]

4 hours ago, saevel25 said:

Even if you play fast the 2nd group can hold up the course. It's up to every group to play ready golf at pace faster than a 4 hour round. 

 

Exactly. It falls all the way down the line. Everyone has that responsibility. 

There's just no reason for a 4 hour + round. I went golfing with 3 coworkers the other week. One who JUST started and shot close to a 150. 

We finished in 3.5 hours.

[Pete]

Our club have (or at least used to have) a '2 balls only' rule up to 9am to avoid this happening. Perhaps this, or 2/3 balls only rule, up to 8am or 8.30 or something could help?

[bkuehn1952]

7 hours ago, ZappyAd said:

... after repeated attempts to ask to play through...

When you asked to play through several times did they just said "no" every time?  Usually a group that refuses a request to play through has some sort of explanation as to why.  What was their explanation?

[Shindig]

* It's a courtesy to play at a reasonable pace, and if I were a member of a private course, I'd want early tee times reserved for people who play quickly (or at least closed to those who can't or won't).  S-L-O-W play from a group with no one ahead of them is inexcusable.  You don't need to rush to play quickly.

* If you're slow and no one's ahead of you, and someone catches you at a tee and wants to play through, you need to let them.

[Jeremie Boop]

8 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

When you asked to play through several times did they just said "no" every time?  Usually a group that refuses a request to play through has some sort of explanation as to why.  What was their explanation?

What possible legitimate reason could they give for not allowing people to play through? The only valid excuse, pretty much ever, is that there's no room in front which obviously wasn't the case here.

[ZappyAd]

Just now, bkuehn1952 said:

When you asked to play through several times did they just said "no" every time?  Usually a group that refuses a request to play through has some sort of explanation as to why.  What was their explanation?

I think their view was something along the lines of we always book this time to be first out on the course.  

[bkuehn1952]

7 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

What possible legitimate reason could they give for not allowing people to play through? The only valid excuse, pretty much ever, is that there's no room in front which obviously wasn't the case here.

 

4 minutes ago, ZappyAd said:

I think their view was something along the lines of we always book this time to be first out on the course.  

I apologize for seeming dense here.  It sounds like no actual request was made to play through.  I can appreciate the fact that many of us prefer to wait for the slow group to offer an opportunity to play through.  If things were slow enough to warrant abandoning the round, however, I would have directly asked before it got to that point.  And if they put me off, I would have skipped around them or called the clubhouse.

[ZappyAd]

2 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

I apologize for seeming dense here.  It sounds like no actual request was made to play through.  

No, like I said, we did ask several times.   I don't have a transcript of the entire set of conversations so I can't type it out for you but the net result is we asked, they said no.  Whatever their reasoning if they don't move out of the way then you can't play down that hole safely.

My OP is meant to be more about the wider issue and if there is something structural that the club could or should be doing about it, rather than this specific day.

[DaveP043]

7 minutes ago, ZappyAd said:

My OP is meant to be more about the wider issue and if there is something structural that the club could or should be doing about it, rather than this specific day.

Good job bringing us back to the original question.  I'll summarize my opinion:

Yes, the early groups have a responsibility, in my opinion, to play at a reasonable pace, so as not to inconvenience every single player who starts after them.  Its nothing more complicated than simple good manners.

And yes, the club can do several different things, including having a ranger empowered to REQUIRE that slower groups allow faster players to play through, and refusing to allocate early times to habitually slow players (Sorry sir, those times are booked, I can get you on at 10:15).  Whether a facility has the will or the resources to take the appropriate measures is a completely different question.