Senden waits 22 sec for putt to drop

[MrDC]

It was a total delay, he first walked away from the hole, then took a path away from the hole, then did a full circle, and then started to address his tap in, delay and more delay.

But I don't think he should get a penalty, it wasn't that long.

[Aflighter]

The asian guy  in the olympics definately delayed on his putt that stopped overhanging the cup but when a ball is that close with real possibility of falling theres no way id call it because its against the nature of the game.Would hate to cost  guy a stroke just cause a ball is teetering on falling. 

[Martyn W]

22 hours ago, Aflighter said:

The asian guy  in the olympics definately delayed on his putt that stopped overhanging the cup but when a ball is that close with real possibility of falling theres no way id call it because its against the nature of the game.Would hate to cost  guy a stroke just cause a ball is teetering on falling. 

It is not a judgement call - the Rule is clear. The fact that the ball is 'teetering' does not give you extra time. Even if the ball is visibly in motion it is deemed to be at rest after the ten seconds.

Not quite sure what you mean by 'the nature of the game'?

[Missouri Swede]

2 hours ago, Martyn W said:

It is not a judgement call - the Rule is clear. The fact that the ball is 'teetering' does not give you extra time. Even if the ball is visibly in motion it is deemed to be at rest after the ten seconds.

But in 2014, they allowed Scott Langley's because it was still moving.  At least according to the announcers. (And they always get it right.  Right?  )  

On this one, he watches it for about 8 seconds after it stops before he even starts walking toward it, does not walk directly toward it, and then stops to watch again for about another 7 seconds before it drops. Feherty says, "You're not allowed to hit a moving ball."

 

[Martyn W]

12 minutes ago, Missouri Swede said:

Feherty says, "You're not allowed to hit a moving ball."

Feherty is, of course, mistaken. Whilst the principle is true that you cannot play a moving ball without incurring a penalty, there are three exceptions (see 14-5).  In this case the ball, which may be 'moving' is deemed to be at rest.

From 16-2:  "the player is allowed enough time to reach the hole without unreasonable delay and an additional ten seconds to determine whether the ball is at rest. If by then the ball has not fallen into the hole, it is deemed to be at rest.

[Missouri Swede]

30 minutes ago, Martyn W said:

Feherty is, of course, mistaken. Whilst the principle is true that you cannot play a moving ball without incurring a penalty, there are three exceptions (see 14-5).  In this case the ball, which may be 'moving' is deemed to be at rest.

From 16-2:  "the player is allowed enough time to reach the hole without unreasonable delay and an additional ten seconds to determine whether the ball is at rest. If by then the ball has not fallen into the hole, it is deemed to be at rest.

So should Langley have been assessed a penalty?

[onthehunt526]

So if it falls after the ten seconds of you reaching your ball, and it's still "moving" do you add a penalty stroke?

[Aflighter]

1 hour ago, Martyn W said:

Feherty is, of course, mistaken. Whilst the principle is true that you cannot play a moving ball without incurring a penalty, there are three exceptions (see 14-5).  In this case the ball, which may be 'moving' is deemed to be at rest.

From 16-2:  "the player is allowed enough time to reach the hole without unreasonable delay and an additional ten seconds to determine whether the ball is at rest. If by then the ball has not fallen into the hole, it is deemed to be at rest.

No idea how a ball moving can be deemed at rest.If  ball is moving barely in one certain direction and not oscillating the is not at rest to me.No different than when after a drop they will watch it and make sure its not moving before annoucing ball in play.

[Martyn W]

14 hours ago, Missouri Swede said:

So should Langley have been assessed a penalty?

IMO, yes. 12 seconds to take five steps seems unreasonable to me.

 

12 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

So if it falls after the ten seconds of you reaching your ball, and it's still "moving" do you add a penalty stroke?

Yes.

Edited August 14, 2016 by Martyn W

[Fourputt]

14 hours ago, Aflighter said:

No idea how a ball moving can be deemed at rest.If  ball is moving barely in one certain direction and not oscillating the is not at rest to me.No different than when after a drop they will watch it and make sure its not moving before annoucing ball in play.

Yes, it is different because the rule says it is.  It can't be against the "nature of the game" (whatever that is?), because the rules are what define the game.  Once the ball is overhanging the hole, you have a reasonable amount of time to walk to the hole (not stand and watch, then circle the hole like a boxer sizing up his opponent) plus 10 seconds.  The 10 seconds is a total time, and can be a combination of delays both before and after approaching the hole.  If the ball hasn't fallen by then, it is deemed by rule to be at rest.  If it starts moving again after that, or if it never stopped moving, and falls in the hole, then you add a stroke, pick it out of the hole, and move to the next tee.  

It's black and white, with very little room for gray.  Senden pushed the envelope right to the limit by his actions, and in my opinion, could have been penalized by a strict interpretation of the rule.  In his case I don't have an issue with them not penalizing him, but he was on the cusp.

[Aflighter]

2 hours ago, Fourputt said:

Yes, it is different because the rule says it is.  It can't be against the "nature of the game" (whatever that is?), because the rules are what define the game.  Once the ball is overhanging the hole, you have a reasonable amount of time to walk to the hole (not stand and watch, then circle the hole like a boxer sizing up his opponent) plus 10 seconds.  The 10 seconds is a total time, and can be a combination of delays both before and after approaching the hole.  If the ball hasn't fallen by then, it is deemed by rule to be at rest.  If it starts moving again after that, or if it never stopped moving, and falls in the hole, then you add a stroke, pick it out of the hole, and move to the next tee.  

It's black and white, with very little room for gray.  Senden pushed the envelope right to the limit by his actions, and in my opinion, could have been penalized by a strict interpretation of the rule.  In his case I don't have an issue with them not penalizing him, but he was on the cusp.

Then that's a stupid rule then.When I mean nature of game  i mean using  rule to keep someone from earning what they deserve by their play.Dont wanna see a damn timer taking away from someones effort.I understand you cant sit and wait for an extended period of time but  for it to have to be an exact time thats not that long.For a ball to drop in cup even after 10,-15 secs or so is because its still not stopped moving unless an earthquake happened.Everyone needs to allow the play dictate what happens and not be like"oh  he should be penalized. "

[Rulesman]

3 hours ago, Aflighter said:

Then that's a stupid rule then.When I mean nature of game  i mean using  rule to keep someone from earning what they deserve by their play.Dont wanna see a damn timer taking away from someones effort.I understand you cant sit and wait for an extended period of time but  for it to have to be an exact time thats not that long.For a ball to drop in cup even after 10,-15 secs or so is because its still not stopped moving unless an earthquake happened.Everyone needs to allow the play dictate what happens and not be like"oh  he should be penalized. "

How would you word the rule for such a situation? 

[Fourputt]

12 hours ago, Aflighter said:

Then that's a stupid rule then.When I mean nature of game  i mean using  rule to keep someone from earning what they deserve by their play.Dont wanna see a damn timer taking away from someones effort.I understand you cant sit and wait for an extended period of time but  for it to have to be an exact time thats not that long.For a ball to drop in cup even after 10,-15 secs or so is because its still not stopped moving unless an earthquake happened.Everyone needs to allow the play dictate what happens and not be like"oh  he should be penalized. "

You seem to have issues with quite a few rules, going by some of your comments on this forum.  It makes one wonder why you play if you hate the game that much.  After all, the game is defined by its rules, and if you don't like the rules, how can you enjoy the game?

[macdaddy18]

13 hours ago, Fourputt said:

You seem to have issues with quite a few rules, going by some of your comments on this forum.  It makes one wonder why you play if you hate the game that much.  After all, the game is defined by its rules, and if you don't like the rules, how can you enjoy the game?

You can certainly love something, or someone for that matter, even if certain aspects/traits of that thing/person make you want to rip your hair out - just ask my wife. . .  Golf has a number of questionable and complex rules that are subject to interpretation and not clearly understood by even many of the best players in the world.  I've heard many golf commentators and authorities make the case that clarifying and simplifying the rules could be an important step in growing participation in the game.  I've loved golf practically since I learned to walk, but it still makes me crazy.  For example, I understand the concept of "rub of the green" and, like life itself, nobody ever said the game was supposed to be fair, but how maddening is it when you do what you're supposed to do by busting a drive down the center stripe of the fairway, only to discover that you'll be playing your next shot from deep w/in the trench that some bozo ahead of you was kind enough to leave in his wake?

Edited August 15, 2016 by macdaddy18

[Wally Fairway]

Looking at the Senden video he walked all the way around the hole, but that isn't the point. The rule says the player is allowed enough time to reach the hole without unreasonable delay and an additional 10 seconds.

In the video the ball stops rolling at 0:05 seconds; at 0:07 seconds Senden starts his adventure around the green, stopping twice to stare at the ball and at 0:27 seconds he is starting to step up to the ball when it falls in. So if it took the ball 27 seconds to fall, clearly he is allowed the additional 10 seconds; so the question is "Is 10 seconds an unreasonable delay to play the next shot?
IMO although he did take the long way home to get to the ball it is not unreasonable to walk up and look at the ball and hole and make sure you are not in someone else's line. So I wouldn't penalize him, although he does need a reminder though not a warning.

Langley's is different the ball stops at 0:09 and he doesn't start walking until 0:17 (IMO using almost all of his additional 10 seconds), stopping again at 0:23 and standing there talking to Bubba and walking until it drops at 0:31 although he had started to walkup (maybe to tap it in, maybe for a closer look). Here the ball is deemed to be at rest not when it quits moving but after enough time to reach the hole plus the additional 10 seconds, which IMO had occurred in the Langley situation.This isn't like what was seen at the 2015 Open Championship where the wind was blowing balls around the green and therefore they couldn't be marked or played.

 

 

[Ernest Jones]

Looks reasonable to me. 

[Fourputt]

3 hours ago, macdaddy18 said:

You can certainly love something, or someone for that matter, even if certain aspects/traits of that thing/person make you want to rip your hair out - just ask my wife. . .  Golf has a number of questionable and complex rules that are subject to interpretation and not clearly understood by even many of the best players in the world.  I've heard many golf commentators and authorities make the case that clarifying and simplifying the rules could be an important step in growing participation in the game.  I've loved golf practically since I learned to walk, but it still makes me crazy.  For example, I understand the concept of "rub of the green" and, like life itself, nobody ever said the game was supposed to be fair, but how maddening is it when you do what you're supposed to do by busting a drive down the center stripe of the fairway, only to discover that you'll be playing your next shot from deep w/in the trench that some bozo ahead of you was kind enough to leave in his wake?

And yet, nobody, not one of those self-styled experts, has come up with a workable simplification of the rules.  Do you suppose that might mean that the USGA and the R&A are on the right track, and the bitching is just that.... bitching?

[Big C]

41 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

And yet, nobody, not one of those self-styled experts, has come up with a workable simplification of the rules.  Do you suppose that might mean that the USGA and the R&A are on the right track, and the bitching is just that.... bitching?

Probably true. In theory you could extend the window from 10 seconds to 20 seconds. In that case both Senden and Langley would have been within the time window, even with a strict rules interpretation (although Langley still would have been close).

But the more practical solution would be to keep the wording as is and just apply a very liberal interpretation to "without unreasonable delay." Which - I believe - is how it's being handled now. At first glance and without getting out my stopwatch, I didn't have any problem with Senden or Langley's actions. An over zealous official could have easily penalized Langley, and could have made a case to penalize both. 

But both were allowed to play on and I think that's as it should be.