"Adulting"

[Rainmaker]

So now that we've removed the ability for kids to grow up on their own and have their own unstructured experiences during childhood - we have to teach them how to cope in a world without participation trophies . .where failure is real and inevitable. 

http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/college-game-plan/college-teaches-anxious-students-not-see-failure-catastrophic-n641521

As a parent, this bugs me to no end and leaves me feeling somewhat hopeless . .in the sense that it's actually difficult or even impossible to allow kids to actually "grow up".  When my kids play soccer, for example . .there's nothing that I can do about the fact that everybody gets a trophy just for participating.  There's nothing I can do about the fact that just about the only interaction they get with kids their age is at supervised play dates and formal "events".  When a squabble breaks out in the playroom - all the adults come running instead of just giving them at least a little chance to work it out themselves. 

There's nothing I can do about what or how they teach at school.  Even though my kids are still really little . .I see this as a pretty big problem going forward.  There literally is no possibility of failure for them  .. no conflict . . .until they get out into the real world where, of course, our ability to recover from inevitable failures and handle conflict is key to our success. 

The fact that this "Adulting Class" exists is a sad testament where our culture is headed.  In my opinion, anyway. 

[iacas]

While generally agreeing with what you've said, I do think that we sometimes look back and remember things differently than they were.

At a Title IX speech recently, the speaker said for 30 years coaches have all been saying that their players are "soft" or "coddled" or whatever. In reality, while players probably are more that way now than ever, it's probably not to the degree to which we might say.

In YMCA sports, when kids get participation trophies, they know who is a good player. They know the scores of the games.

And you as a parent still have a TON of control over how YOUR kids view the world, and are treated in it. You can let them fight it out with their siblings or friends. You can let them post something on social media you know they'll regret a little so they see the consequences. Etc.

[Golfingdad]

37 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

When my kids play soccer, for example . .there's nothing that I can do about the fact that everybody gets a trophy just for participating.

Erik kind of already covered what I was going to say, but just to reiterate, this isn't remotely new.  I "earned" a trophy for playing soccer and little league every year back in the 80s and my generation turned out fine.  Participation trophies have been around for a long time.

40 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

Theres nothing I can do about the fact that just about the only interaction they get with kids their age is at supervised play dates and formal "events".  When a squabble breaks out in the playroom - all the adults come running instead of just giving them at least a little chance to work it out themselves.

This doesn't make any sense to me either.  Why can't you allow your kids to play with their friends at informal events and let them work stuff out themselves? Now that our two oldest are in elementary school (K & 2), they occasionally have play dates with their friends (without us) and they spend their afternoons at an after school program where there is a fairly high ratio of kids to leaders, and more importantly, no parents present.

This strikes me as one of those revisionist history "I used to walk to school in the snow uphill both ways" ideas.

---

Not actually related to the topic: I think using "adult" as a verb is dumb. ;)

[Patch]

I am so old school. I still believe good parenting developes good kids, who if they choose to have kids, will be good parents. 

We raised two daughters. We also helped raise 6 Grand Children. Our oldest daughter didn't get our best parenting skills, because for us as parents,  at that time, it was "OJT". Both girls still turned out quite well, but there is a substantial difference in their attitudes on life, and we can see similar differences in their own children. All these differences are on us as their parents. We as parents failed in some areas, averaged out in others, but excelled in others. 

As for schooling, I still believe parents still have quite a bit of say in their children's educations. Parents have 12-18 years to help their kids do well in college. If not college, then life in general.

One of our daughters is more strict on things like home work, vs games than her sister. Her children, for the most part, earn the better grades. Our other daughter is a happy go lucky clean freak. Her kids' rooms are spotless. Their cousins' rooms are a major disaster area. ;

No,  I put the responsibility on the parents as to how well their children adjust to growing up. There will always be the exceptions of course.  Good parents with lousy kids, and lousy parents with great kids. However, in the grand scheme of things, parents are the responsible party in their child's behavior.  

[jamo]

Guys, please, I beg you, take it from a millennial: The problem is not participation trophies in 1st grade soccer. That's a ridiculous red herring people convince themselves actually matters so they can feel good about themselves. 

Also, the phrase "adulting" started as a tongue-in-cheek hashtag on social media. It's supposed to sound ridiculous. 

[Rainmaker]

38 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Erik kind of already covered what I was going to say, but just to reiterate, this isn't remotely new.  I "earned" a trophy for playing soccer and little league every year back in the 80s and my generation turned out fine.  Participation trophies have been around for a long time.

This doesn't make any sense to me either.  Why can't you allow your kids to play with their friends at informal events and let them work stuff out themselves? Now that our two oldest are in elementary school (K & 2), they occasionally have play dates with their friends (without us) and they spend their afternoons at an after school program where there is a fairly high ratio of kids to leaders, and more importantly, no parents present.

This strikes me as one of those revisionist history "I used to walk to school in the snow uphill both ways" ideas.

---

Not actually related to the topic: I think using "adult" as a verb is dumb. ;)

 

I don't think it's revisionist . .I'm not sure how/when or where you grew up . .I grew up in Upstate NY in the 80's.  During the summer when school was out, my younger brother and I would hop on our bikes with our Mother yelling after us "be home before dinner and stay in the neighborhood". 

We built forts in the woods, we fished and explored in the creek - we used to go play in this abandoned quarry, get in fights once in a while . . . .and do other things we shouldn't have.  And all my friends were the same - they could go out and roam the neighborhood. 

In my neighborhood, I don't see kids running around without adults in tow . .ever.  We don't have any friends who would allow their children to play outside unsupervised.  Sure, I can let my kids play unsupervised . .but they'd have to play on their own and I'd be singled out as a "bad parent" . .and possibly my kids would get picked up by CPS . . .

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/04/13/parents-investigated-letting-children-walk-alone/25700823/

My brother and I did this every single day, lol . . .

edit . . I played little league and, indeed, there was a trophy for everybody  .like a little plastic "loser trophy" compared to the big awesome one you got for winning.  We took no pride in receiving the loser trophy. 

And I agree . . "Adulting" as a verb is cringe-worthy.

Edited September 4, 2016 by Rainmaker

[Golfingdad]

10 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

 

I don't think it's revisionist . .I'm not sure how/when or where you grew up . .I grew up in Upstate NY in the 80's.  During the summer when school was out, my younger brother and I would hop on our bikes with our Mother yelling after us "be home before dinner and stay in the neighborhood". 

We built forts in the woods, we fished and explored in the creek - we used to go play in this abandoned quarry, get in fights once in a while . . . .and do other things we shouldn't have.  And all my friends were the same - they could go out and roam the neighborhood. 

In my neighborhood, I don't see kids running around without adults in tow . .ever.  We don't have any friends who would allow their children to play outside unsupervised.  Sure, I can let my kids play unsupervised . .but they'd have to play on their own and I'd be singled out as a "bad parent" . .and possibly my kids would get picked up by CPS . . .

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/04/13/parents-investigated-letting-children-walk-alone/25700823/

My brother and I did this every single day, lol . . .

I didn't say things weren't different, I said that participation trophies have always been around and there's really nothing stopping you from not becoming a helicopter parent.  Others certainly are, but that's their (or their kids) problem, it doesn't have to apply to you.

Sure, there aren't kids playing at the park now without their parents at least in the vicinity, but that doesn't mean all doom and gloom.  If you see your kid getting into it with another kid, you don't have to run and solve it for them immediately.  If you see your kid fall off the monkey bars, you don't have to scoop em up and race to the er immediately either.

Things aren't identical to the last generation, (they never have been**) but you still have tons of control over your kids futures.

** Our parents were driving to town and buying groceries and driving tractors when they were kids and im sure there were a myriad of doom and gloom articles about how soft we were because our parents didn't trust their 12 year olds with trucks or tractors.

Times change.  Everybody moves on.

 

[Pete F]

I was talking about similar things the other night at dinner with my brother and my mother. I'm one of four boys that all survived childhood. All in our 50s and 60s

We rode in cars without seatbelts, on trips we would sleep in the back of the wagon in sleeping bags.

Rode bicycles and skied without helmets.

Lived without antibacterial soaps

We had a summer house on a lake and went for the summer from the day after school was out till the day before it started, my mother would take our shoes away on  arrival otherwise they would surely be lost. When I was little the camp only had an outhouse and it never had a indoor shower. We bathed in the lake with Ivory Snow (It floats!) Once we could swim we could take the rowboat out of sight, fish all day and come back when we heard the bell ringing. We did'nt have cell phones.

At camp there was no tv, even at home there was only a few channels. We played Pitch or Whist every night on the back porch till it was time to go to sleep.

We played tackle football in a field at home without helmets or pads.

Climbed trees, skipped rocks, fished and fought and lived thru it all.

[Rainmaker]

Yeah . .that's exactly my point.  Times change.  Now we need "Adulting Classes" for kids that never learned how to be self reliant.  

But I don't want to be argumentative . .I see your point.  There definitely are things I can do as a parent to promote self reliance and independence . .I think I'm doing those things. 

I just read this article and it hit me . .this is what we get for helicopter parenting (good term).  And I feel "peer pressure" to parent that way . .although I don't.  I am most certainly *not* a helicopter parent.  My wife is a little more that way - but we balance each other out.  

[Natural Patrick]

30 minutes ago, Pete F said:

I was talking about similar things the other night at dinner with my brother and my mother. I'm one of four boys that all survived childhood. All in our 50s and 60s

We rode in cars without seatbelts, on trips we would sleep in the back of the wagon in sleeping bags.

Rode bicycles and skied without helmets.

Lived without antibacterial soaps

We had a summer house on a lake and went for the summer from the day after school was out till the day before it started, my mother would take our shoes away on  arrival otherwise they would surely be lost. When I was little the camp only had an outhouse and it never had a indoor shower. We bathed in the lake with Ivory Snow (It floats!) Once we could swim we could take the rowboat out of sight, fish all day and come back when we heard the bell ringing. We did'nt have cell phones.

At camp there was no tv, even at home there was only a few channels. We played Pitch or Whist every night on the back porch till it was time to go to sleep.

We played tackle football in a field at home without helmets or pads.

Climbed trees, skipped rocks, fished and fought and lived thru it all.

Ah yes, the tackle football with no helmets and pads. That brings back a lot of memories.

[newtogolf]

It's different today and the peer pressure on parents is a lot greater than it used to be.  

I walked to school starting in 4th grade and didn't get a bus until high school because it was over 1.5 miles away.  Every school morning, regardless of weather my friends and I walked to school, we had rain coats to keep our clothes dry and somehow we didn't melt or die.  We all did it because our parents had to work and no one was available to drive us.  

Today I hardly see any kids walk to school, regardless of age or distance.  When parents see a kid walking, the kid and his parents becomes the topic of the day, "Did you see "Johnny" walking to school, what are his parents thinking, the roads aren't safe, what's their problem, don't they love their kid?"  Same goes for kids who ride their bike, heaven forbid a kid rides his bike to his friends house to hang out, someone better call CPS.   Parents who try to raise their kids with responsibility and some tough love have their love for their children questioned and labeled, the "mean parents".  

Participation trophies, constant intervention in their lives by their parents and their obsession to protect their kids from failure also contribute to the entitled, completely dependent veal that is being sent to colleges.  As a result, the majority of kids today are not prepared to be adults, it's no wonder so many struggle when they go away to college and have to function and think for themselves.  

 

[boogielicious]

1 hour ago, jamo said:

Guys, please, I beg you, take it from a millennial: The problem is not participation trophies in 1st grade soccer. That's a ridiculous red herring people convince themselves actually matters so they can feel good about themselves. 

Also, the phrase "adulting" started as a tongue-in-cheek hashtag on social media. It's supposed to sound ridiculous. 

Thanks for your view.  As we get older, we tend to have a fuzzy view of the past. My son is almost 22. He did soccer from 6 to 16 with me as the coach until 15. We had/have a terrific youth soccer program. We didn't give out participation trophies, but the kids got other items to show they were in the program. They all turned out fine and we're proud to be a part of it.

As for kids not just playing, my son and his friends took it upon themselves to meet up and play. They did capture the flag at the pond reservation. Fished. Played tackle football at the high school and pickup soccer, basketball, street hockey just like I did when I was a kid.

The only real difference I see is we can know where they are and communicate with them quickly now with cell phones. There are a lot more cars on the roads, so there is more danger there. But other than that, it is similar.

It is not the kids who are asking to be coddled. Let's remember that.

[Fourputt]

 A big part of the 24/7 supervision these days is simply the weirdness in today's world.  I did my growing up in the 50's, and no matter what else was happening in the world, that was a fairly idyllic time for a kid.  I lived in a small town just north of St. Paul, MN.  We didn't concern ourselves with child molesters or kidnappers.  They may have been out there, but they were never as prevalent as they seem to be now.  You never heard of weird men hanging around playgrounds.  

We grew up running freely throughout the neighborhood and woods, swam and fished in the lakes, and the worst things that ever happened to any of us was crashing our bikes or falling out of tree - those were considered learning experiences.  All of the kids in the neighborhood knew each other.  We walked to school or rode the bus together, and our parents didn't have to escort us.  We played together unsupervised after school and on weekends.  Our parents were always there when we needed them, but they didn't hover or suffocate us. 

I never got a participation trophy for playing Little League - we usually sucked and as a result we didn't win many games.  All we got out of it was fun playing ball together and an ice cream sundae after each game at the drug store soda fountain.  It seemed like that was enough.  After all, we didn't need a senseless "participation trophy" to know that we had played.  And we didn't feel bad about not getting a trophy that we didn't earn.  

Now I live in a small town on the eastern plains of Colorado, and kids live here much as I did when I was a boy.  They have the free run of the town.  When driving we have to always watch for bikes and kids in the streets.  Most of these children will grow up happy and well adjusted, ready to be adults.  The thought of needing a class to teach them how to be adults is actually somewhat offensive.  It tells me that we have done a crappy job in maintaining the free environment that our parents passed down to us.

[boogielicious]

10 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

It's different today and the peer pressure on parents is a lot greater than it used to be.  

I walked to school starting in 4th grade and didn't get a bus until high school because it was over 1.5 miles away.  Every school morning, regardless of weather my friends and I walked to school, we had rain coats to keep our clothes dry and somehow we didn't melt or die.  We all did it because our parents had to work and no one was available to drive us.  

Today I hardly see any kids walk to school, regardless of age or distance.  When parents see a kid walking, the kid and his parents becomes the topic of the day, "Did you see "Johnny" walking to school, what are his parents thinking, the roads aren't safe, what's their problem, don't they love their kid?"  Same goes for kids who ride their bike, heaven forbid a kid rides his bike to his friends house to hang out, someone better call CPS.   Parents who try to raise their kids with responsibility and some tough love have their love for their children questioned and labeled, the "mean parents".  

Participation trophies, constant intervention in their lives by their parents and their obsession to protect their kids from failure also contribute to the entitled, completely dependent veal that is being sent to colleges.  As a result, the majority of kids today are not prepared to be adults, it's no wonder so many struggle when they go away to college and have to function and think for themselves.  

 

This is a stunning generalization. Show me your evidence? It sound more like old guy pessimism on your part than anything substantial. Every week we can read about the successes of the next group of kids in High School and College. New discoveries, inventions, accomplishments from young people. They're doing fine.

I can say that all the kids my son grew up with are prepared for adulthood and are doing quite fine.

[Natural Patrick]

I had a group of friends in grade school. We loved to ride our bikes to school when there was snow on the ground. Parents did not think it was a good idea, but they never stopped  us. Just told us to be extra careful. Great memories.

4 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

 A big part of the 24/7 supervision these days is simply the weirdness in today's world.  I did my growing up in the 50's, and no matter what else was happening in the world, that was a fairly idyllic time for a kid.  I lived in a small town just north of St. Paul, MN.  We didn't concern ourselves with child molesters or kidnappers.  They may have been out there, but they were never as prevalent as they seem to be now.  You never heard of weird men hanging around playgrounds.  

We grew up running freely throughout the neighborhood and woods, swam and fished in the lakes, and the worst things that ever happened to any of us was crashing our bikes or falling out of tree.  All of the kids in the neighborhood knew each other.  We walked to school or rode the bus together, and our parents didn't have to escort us.  We played together unsupervised after school and on weekends.  Our parents were always there when we needed them, but they didn't hover or suffocate us. 

I never got a participation trophy for playing Little League - we usually sucked and as a result we didn't win many games.  All we got out of it was fun playing ball together and an ice cream sundae after each game at the drug store soda fountain.  It seemed like that was enough.  After all, we didn't need a senseless "participation trophy" to know that we had played.  And we didn't feel bad about not getting a trophy that we didn't earn.  

Now I live in a small town on the eastern plains of Colorado, and kids live here much as I did when I was a boy.  They have the free run of the town.  When driving we have to always watch for bikes and kids in the streets.  Most of these children will grow up happy and well adjusted, ready to be adults.  The though of needing a class to teach them how to be adults is actually somewhat offensive.  It tells me that we have done a crappy job in maintaining the free environment that our parents passed down to us.

Great Post.

[saevel25]

1 hour ago, Rainmaker said:

During the summer when school was out, my younger brother and I would hop on our bikes with our Mother yelling after us "be home before dinner and stay in the neighborhood". 

I was doing that in the 90's. 

14 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

This is a stunning generalization. Show me your evidence? It sound more like old guy pessimism on your part than anything substantial. Every week we can read about the successes of the next group of kids in High School and College. New discoveries, inventions, accomplishments from young people. They're doing fine.

I can say that all the kids my son grew up with are prepared for adulthood and are doing quite fine.

I agree. I always think there is this gap in generations that causes one to not fully understand another. 

Older generations have a habit of criticizing the next generation because of the nuances between what changes in the world and how the new generation wants to forge their lives in a different way. 

This might be one of those situations were social media and 24/7 news inflates the perception of what is going on. 

[Golfingdad]

21 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

This is a stunning generalization. Show me your evidence? It sound more like old guy pessimism on your part than anything substantial. Every week we can read about the successes of the next group of kids in High School and College. New discoveries, inventions, accomplishments from young people. They're doing fine.

I can say that all the kids my son grew up with are prepared for adulthood and are doing quite fine.

The entire thread is old guy pessimism.  Perhaps times aren't quite as different today as you think, or things so much "weirder" and the only real difference is that technology is simply allowing us to know more about everything that is going on.

An example: Florida has a rep these days as being home to more crazy shit than the rest of the country.  So many stories that end in nonsense start with "A Florida man..." such that it's a cliche.  But the reality is that Florida has information laws that allow press/public to see and read more information sooner than the rest of us.  More stuff doesn't necessarily happen there, we are just more aware of it.

I think that's a good microcosm for how "weird" we think our world now is.

[CoachB25]

I have taught and coached for 30 years.  Anyone who doesn't think that times and how children have been raised have not changed is not dealing in reality.  When I first started teaching, when Jon Jon got a "D," the parent was angry at Jon Jon.  Now, it is the teacher's fault for not identifying Jon Jon's special needs.  In coaching, when a player messed up or the team, they ran.  Now, you can get fired for that in many school districts.  I know one former player who became a coach who was fired for making her volleyball team run laps around her high school.  (She played basketball for me.)  She could not believe it that she was fired.  That is a sign of the times.  One former baseball player worked in a very small school district.  He refused to accept that his small school could not compete with much bigger schools and so changed his schedule.  When they didn't win 20 games due to the tougher schedule, he was let go as a coach but was still able to teacher in the district.  His team won a regional title.  The replacement coach won 20 when they returned to the old schedule.  He has still not won a regional title and that was 4 years ago.  I am now the JV softball coach.  I used to be the Head Coach but resigned to watch my daughter play softball in college.  When I was hired to do the JV, it was made abundantly clear that I could no longer coach as I once did.  The helicopter parents are everywhere and in every sport.  This past week in a golf match, I saw a parent drive across a fairway to tell his daughter to tell the person who was keeping her card that she misreported a score for a hole and to reduce the number she reported.  He did that with me, a coach sitting there.  This is a disqualification.  He was furious that I would mention it.  He thinks it is alright for all parents to intervene in matches. 

As per the "Adult" issue, there is a vast difference between being what I call a "biological" and a parent.  I raised my child to take care of herself and not depend upon anyone.  When competing, I told her if she wanted to beat me at something then do it but I won't let her win.  I taught her how to stand up for herself to the point of being able to throw blows and out shoot anyone else around.  Through softball, she played the best around and played "up" starting at 12U.  By the time she was 13, she was playing 18U.  Parents need to let their child fail and then be there to catch them.  They need to believe in the abilities that the child has and encourage them to push themselves.  Well, I could go on and on and apologize for rambling.