"Playing From a Position" à la Jim Venetos

[boogielicious]

11 hours ago, Martinritchie1958 said:

Some of you guys come over as really rude. Open your mind to the possibility that you don't know it all. I did and I don't regret it. 

Jim Venetos is a very smart guy who might just  show you some insight. The bio mechanics stuff is really common sense. I used to hobble around after a round of golf with my trad swing. Now I play 3 times a week and practice a further 4 hours and am pain free in both my knees and lower back. 

And I score better than I have in 15 years. 

Just sayin... 

We don’t know it all. That is why we ask questions. But sadly, Mr Venetos and some of his adherents never answer our questions, which would help our understanding. We have members on this forum, who use this swing method too. They are just as frustrated that Jim doesn’t explain it in his videos. You can read that in the thread above.

Lastly, please don’t read emotions into the posts. These threads are discussions, not arguments.

[RussUK]

Holy crap, I'm away from the site for 9 months and come back and this thread is still alive and kicking. 

The pandemic altered my priorities a little (lost job, got new job, a lot less playing golf but months of practice) but back on it now.

Happy new year by the way. Hope you are all doing well and keeping safe.

 

[iacas]

11 hours ago, RussUK said:

Holy crap, I'm away from the site for 9 months and come back and this thread is still alive and kicking.

I mean, yes and no…

11 hours ago, RussUK said:

The pandemic altered my priorities a little (lost job, got new job, a lot less playing golf but months of practice) but back on it now.

Good to hear! Glad to have you back.

[Intruder]

I find some of the comments here bad-mannered and elitist.   I haven't read the entire list of the thread going back a few years but it seems the 'traditionals' are dumping on JV unfairly. 

I Live in Canada where we play golf about 7 months of the year...if we are lucky.  I have been playing for 20 years and for me personally JVs method of weight forward, stack and tilt, body still (whatever you want to call it)...works.  It may not work for everybody.  To say the tried and trued method of the modern golf swing is the only way to really advance far in the game is not built on reality.   Do the names Wolfe or Furyk ring a bell?   That's not to take away from the near perfect swings of McIlroy, Adam Scott etc.   My point is this, there are many ways to get from A to B...Jims method is one way, not the only way.    I am a 7 handicap...18 months ago I was a 12.   I started working on the stack and tilt, saw Jims swing videos, which to me essentially is a stack and tilt, and have never looked back.   I simply liked his demeanor, calmness, presentation etc.   Now maybe I am knowingly tricking my mind but if you look at Ben Hogans swing....the way he 'seems' to load his weight on is front leg at the top of his swing....its a stack and tilt or a version of it.   

I'm not here to offend or argue.  However you swing (believe me I have seen ton of bad swings with great results) enjoy the game and be open to the possibility that there is more than one way to play this game.  

 

[Vinsk]

7 hours ago, Intruder said:

To say the tried and trued method of the modern golf swing is the only way to really advance far in the game is not built on reality.   Do the names Wolfe or Furyk ring a bell?   

Hello and welcome to TST. I’m sorry you feel this thread has an elitist attitude. I have a lot of experience with JV and have been using his method for about two years now. First, Wolfe and Furyk still swing the club in a manner JV would claim as ‘flawed.’ They both shift their weight and rotate their shoulders on their back swings.

Second, nobody here says the JV method doesn’t work. We simply have asked for proof that it can accomplish the ball striking necessary at the elite level. To this day JV has never presented any data on his nor any of his student’s actual numbers. Nor after 30 years has one single player won or played on the PGA TOUR who uses JV’s method. That’s just reality.

It’s 2021. Hitting a ball into a net or just off into the air in slow motion then claiming ‘ 118mph’ swing isn’t gonna fly with serious players. And even if JV can achieve those numbers, we aren’t convinced most people can too. Why? Because JV takes some liberties with physics and biomechanics. Unfortunately when asked to prove how he feels one can achieve elite player swing speeds, he becomes snarky and leaves the conversation.

JV’s method can certainly get somebody to playing better and enjoy the game more probably faster than the traditional teachings. But when he starts claiming that the methodology of the world’s greatest players for decades and decades is flawed...he better put up more evidence than anecdotes and one-liners.

The reality is that those golfers that JV claim all have flawed methods can run circles around JV and any of his students. Now see, his response to that would be ‘ I have a student who is a +7 hcp and can beat the pants off of you.’ Does that really win the debate?

Here are a few of Jim’s common responses to anyone who dares question his method:

1. ‘ Join my school, you’ll see.’ ( No you won’t. I was in his school and he posts zero videos of his numbers.)

2. ‘Shouldn’t you be working on your game rather than questioning my method?’ ( Childish and rude)

3. I hit 8/10 drives in a long drive championship in the grid and placed 2nd....the winner hit 3. Who’s more powerful?’ Zero proof of this. But hey, who needs proof right? Only arrogant and elitists people will doubt him.

4. ‘What’s your handicap? Yeah? How’s the traditional method working out for you? Would you see a doctor that was rated as an 8hcp at being a doctor? ( Again childish and rude. And the funny thing is the gap between my scores and Jim’s are probably less than Jim’s vs a PGA TOUR pro.

There are many of these tiresome answers that prove nothing. So back to reality. JV’s method hasn’t turned out a single player on the PGA TOUR or the Korn Ferry tour in over 30 years. And again the main point isn’t to say his method doesn’t work. It’s his asinine claim that traditional methodology is flawed...despite the fact that it’s produced the greatest golfers in the world for many years before and after JV .

I’m glad you enjoy his method. I do too. But to think it’s elitist to ask for proof when one claims the best in the world are flawed is absurd and ridiculous. Jim relies on people who love to cover their ears to facts. Again, nobody said here his method won’t work. If JV simply pushes his method as an easier way to enjoy the game...fine. But to take it a step further and make outlandish claims that it’s superior to the best in the world then get pissy when questioned is infantile and laughable. To this day JV has never shown his swing on a monitor. Which he told me he would do over a year ago in a phone conversation.

 

[ChetlovesMer]

8 hours ago, Intruder said:

I find some of the comments here bad-mannered and elitist.   I haven't read the entire list of the thread going back a few years but it seems the 'traditionals' are dumping on JV unfairly. 

I disagree. Firstly, I don't think anyone has "dumped on" JV. (Especially not unfairly) I know I've commented over and over again in this thread that if JV's style gets you out playing golf where you otherwise can't than by all means use it. If you like it, by all means use it. 

Like you, I'm not sure I've read every comment on this thread, but the overwhelming majority have said. It's a method that is effective. But only going to take you so far. 

 

8 hours ago, Intruder said:

Do the names Wolfe or Furyk ring a bell?   

Neither of these people use JV's swing. There's NEVER been ANY ARGUEMENT that there are more than one way to hit a golf ball. THAT HAS NEVER BEEN DEBATED on this thread, nor to my knowledge debated to any real degree on this forum. The only thing that people on this forum have said is that JV's swing will limit your development as a golfer. YOU CAN PLAY the swing. YOU CAN IMPROVE USING THE JV SWING! There's no doubt about that. But if you want to reach the maximum of your potential (assuming you have the time to practice and the physical ability) you won't get there using JV's swing. If I'm wrong about that please present evidence to the contrary. 

 

8 hours ago, Intruder said:

I'm not here to offend or argue.  

You have not offended in the least. I don't think anyone wants to argue with you. I've sure we'd all like to have a discussion. 

 

The evidence and science points to the fact that you will never be as long while using the JV swing. Longer is better in golf. I'm not sure that's still debatable. Therefore you will be better if you can learn a non-JV swing, and hit the ball farther. Many folks who support the JV swing say "Well, length isn't everything. What about accuracy?" To which we've all said we agree, accuracy matters. However, there's no evidence to show that other styles of swings are "less accurate" than JV's style. But there is evidence to show other methods ARE longer and hit the ball farther. 

 

If you like JV's style, please go ahead and use it. I'm happy that there are many type of golf swings. I love discussing golf. I'm happy to discuss it with you. Truly, I support JV and his teaching style. There are many golfers out there who for one reason or another simply cannot do the more traditional style swing. The JV swing is an option for those folks. 

[Phil McGleno]

18 hours ago, Intruder said:

I find some of the comments here bad-mannered and elitist.

I agree, @Jim Venetos could have been nicer and less elitist!

18 hours ago, Intruder said:

I haven't read the entire list of the thread going back a few years but it seems the 'traditionals' are dumping on JV unfairly.

Please tell me-What has been unfair? People in this topic have said-

• Simpler swing that can get you playing OK golf semi-quickly
• Power or speed will be limited
• Low ceiling for how good you can get with this swing

Nobody has done much to disprove those-Have they?

18 hours ago, Intruder said:

To say the tried and trued method of the modern golf swing is the only way to really advance far in the game is not built on reality.

WHERE WAS THIS SAID?

18 hours ago, Intruder said:

Do the names Wolfe or Furyk ring a bell?

They swing more like the-Traditional swing-Than the JV swing-Yeah?

18 hours ago, Intruder said:

I started working on the stack and tilt, saw Jims swing videos, which to me essentially is a stack and tilt, and have never looked back.

It is not a Stack and Tilt.

18 hours ago, Intruder said:

Now maybe I am knowingly tricking my mind but if you look at Ben Hogans swing....the way he 'seems' to load his weight on is front leg at the top of his swing....its a stack and tilt or a version of it.

No-Hogan shifted right and then back forward.

EriK made a good picture of this-I will try to find it.

[iacas]

25 minutes ago, Phil McGleno said:

It is not a Stack and Tilt.

No-Hogan shifted right and then back forward.

EriK made a good picture of this-I will try to find it.

Yeah I just got your PM. I was just talking about you in the GG topic.

Is this the image you wanted? You should have it in your older PMs. I don't think I've posted it publicly here on the forum anywhere.

[Intruder]

Obviously elitist was a poor choice of words.   My apologies to all (that's the Canadian in me 😄).  Again...I didn't read the entire thread which goes back a few years I think.   On the surface, it just seemed JV was being dumped on for something that works for him.  I wasn't aware of people asking for proof of some claims he has made.     If JV or any instructor make claims that their way is the only way, I don't agree with that either.   

And correct, I don't know anyone the swings purely like JV...I assume he found something...it worked for him and he is passing it along.   I don't subscribe to his channel and I have never emailed or contacted him...again...I simply liked his presentation and it is sort of stack and tilt like in the way the weight is kept on the front side.   If you don't think it is stack and tilt like, that's ok.

My comment about Wolfe and Furyk was to simply outline the fact that they're swings are unique and they still found the big time.   Maybe someone with JVs swing will go far, it just hasn't happened...yet!  For example if Matt Wolfe never existed and an instructor was trying to sell that swing I'm not sure anyone would buy into it.   

Thanks for the replies on my comment.  Now, a little about me.  I love golf.  I love discussing golf.    I could pound balls all day...so therapeutic.  I'm self-taught and my knowledge of the swing is likely minimal compared to most people on this forum.   I just know what works for me.   I average about 260 carry on my drives and I definitely do not swing hard...I just want to keep it in play.    If I was in warm florida I might be able to squeeze out a few more yards on my carry.  But here in Canada on average...it's a bit cooler and softer with slower greens.   

 

Thanks for the Hogan post.   

 

 

 

 

 

[Vinsk]

6 hours ago, Intruder said:

 On the surface, it just seemed JV was being dumped on for something that works for him

No. JV has pitched his method on many other sites all with the same outcome; he leaves. And he leaves when he’s asked to show numbers, student’s results, scores, competitions or any biomechanics data. Not anecdotes, data.

 

6 hours ago, Intruder said:

If JV or any instructor make claims that their way is the only way, I don't agree with that either.

He doesn’t. But he claims, ‘ the traditional method of swinging is flawed.’ In fact, he actually claims that weight shifting causes a loss in power. So, Bryson, Cameron, Bubba, Rory, DJ..etc..are all losing power.

 

6 hours ago, Intruder said:

Maybe someone with JVs swing will go far, it just hasn't happened...yet! 

He’s been peddling this method for over 30 years. I don’t think he realizes that actually weakens his case.

 

6 hours ago, Intruder said:

For example if Matt Wolfe never existed and an instructor was trying to sell that swing I'm not sure anyone would buy into it. 

Right. But he does and he’s an accomplished PGA TOUR player and can beat the pants off of JV or any of his students. Also consider why after 30 years are there no JV method players on tour? Hell the KF tour, LPGA? Symetra? Why do you think that is?

[boogielicious]

6 hours ago, Intruder said:

Thanks for the replies on my comment.  Now, a little about me.  I love golf.  I love discussing golf.    I could pound balls all day...so therapeutic.  I'm self-taught and my knowledge of the swing is likely minimal compared to most people on this forum.   I just know what works for me.   I average about 260 carry on my drives and I definitely do not swing hard...I just want to keep it in play.    If I was in warm florida I might be able to squeeze out a few more yards on my carry.  But here in Canada on average...it's a bit cooler and softer with slower greens. 

You came to the right site for golf discussion. And yes, winter stinks in the north, 🥶. There is so much to learn about golf. We try our best to keep topics as discussions and debates and not allow them to devolve into defensive arguments. We love discussing topics and when folks bring in examples to support their points.

Since you are self taught, this thread below has tons of interesting topics as links. Enjoy.

 

[IMAG72]

I am not a pro. I'm a weekend hacker in search of a repeatable swing. Over the years I've noticed a pattern of dismissing non-conventional swings or pointing out why it won't work. There is only one true way to verify if a swing can cannot work for an individual and there is plenty of evidence that shows weekend golfers are not improving  (I'm guessing most of us are good at stinking up the course using a conventional swing). Therefore, implying a swing is validated  if it shows up on tour doesn't add up. Let's get back to the ball doesn't lie and a little self-discovery. I don't need Trackman data if I can see that my ball lands in the middle of the green if I'm 170 out and pull my 7 iron. I plan on trying Jim's technique so I can judge for myself. 

[DaveP043]

12 minutes ago, IMAG72 said:

Over the years I've noticed a pattern of dismissing non-conventional swings or pointing out why it won't work.....

Therefore, implying a swing is validated if it shows up on tour doesn't add up.

I don't think anyone here has said that the Venetos swing can't work, only that there appear to be limitations to what it can do.  The lack of Venetos-style players on tour is reasonably indicative that the Venetos method can't get the speed and/or accuracy required to play at that extremely high level.  But it certainly has the potential to help some players, and a number of guys have specifically said that the Venetos method has helped them improve.  If you're going to try it, I hope it helps you too!

Welcome to TheSandTrap!!  

 

 

[iacas]

38 minutes ago, IMAG72 said:

Over the years I've noticed a pattern of dismissing non-conventional swings or pointing out why it won't work.

Two quick points:

• Nobody's "dismissing" it here. Read posts by Vinsk and you'll see that he's even using the technique(s).
• We are asking questions, that @Jim Venetos seemingly can't/won't answer.

So, yeah, there has been a bit of a "here's why this won't work" but it's also been "here's why it won't work at a high level."

39 minutes ago, IMAG72 said:

There is only one true way to verify if a swing can cannot work for an individual and there is plenty of evidence that shows weekend golfers are not improving…

Really? There's plenty of evidence to support the idea that players are getting better, despite the fact that only about 14% of golfers EVER take lessons.

39 minutes ago, IMAG72 said:

Therefore, implying a swing is validated  if it shows up on tour doesn't add up.

IIRC, most of those types of responses were pointing out that the swing likely has a lower ceiling than anything more like a "conventional" swing. Even Bryson has taken an "unorthodox" swing to the PGA Tour.

[IMAG72]

Saying the swing "likely" has a lower ceiling is anecdotal. The only way to know the ceiling at higher levels is a better golfer applying the swing on a regular basis. Trying one or two times regardless of the results is not enough to serve as sound data. It seems that statements are more assumptions vs hypothesis which breeds a more defensive posture by proponents/opponents of whatever swing. I can say I went to the range earlier and I struck the ball very well and placed a number of driver shots over the range fence. Small sample size but I walked away thinking there are many benefits to pre-senting the swing. I play Ping S55s and my 7 iron goes 170 (not sure what my swing speed is). I noticed no drop off in distance but did notice my wedge shots went higher. I will give the method a go on the golf course. Golf is a beautiful game with many ways to get the job done. I think it was the Palmer commercial that best captures where we should all be and that is, "Swing your swing."

[iacas]

3 hours ago, IMAG72 said:

Saying the swing "likely" has a lower ceiling is anecdotal.

No, it isn't.

The swing uses fewer muscles, has less rotation, etc. It's limited. It's fact. Please look up the definition of "anecdotal," because this isn't that.

"Likely," which I'm not sure why you put in quotation marks, was me being kind. It definitely has a lower ceiling.

3 hours ago, IMAG72 said:

The only way to know the ceiling at higher levels is a better golfer applying the swing on a regular basis.

You're misunderstanding the point. A long drive guy could likely generate PGA Tour level speeds with something like the JV swing… but he can generate more with a more "conventional" swing.

3 hours ago, IMAG72 said:

Trying one or two times regardless of the results is not enough to serve as sound data.

Did you read the topic?

3 hours ago, IMAG72 said:

It seems that statements are more assumptions vs hypothesis which breeds a more defensive posture by proponents/opponents of whatever swing.

Same question…

3 hours ago, IMAG72 said:

I can say I went to the range earlier and I struck the ball very well and placed a number of driver shots over the range fence. Small sample size but I walked away thinking there are many benefits to pre-senting the swing. I play Ping S55s and my 7 iron goes 170 (not sure what my swing speed is). I noticed no drop off in distance but did notice my wedge shots went higher.

So you think you learned and successfully made this swing in one range session?

[Vinsk]

4 hours ago, IMAG72 said:

Saying the swing "likely" has a lower ceiling is anecdotal.

Yeah. Well JV repeatedly saying the traditional method is flawed and that his method is biomechanically sound is all anecdotal as well. In fact, JV has never produced anything beyond ‘ I know a guy, student’ when it comes to what his successful students have achieved. Hell, JV himself has never proven his accomplishments other than his saying he did.

Look, as many others have mistakenly said nobody is dismissing JV’s method. I use it. But honestly, have you listened to all of his videos? Most of them? Or have you watched a couple, decided he seems like a nice guy then came here to defend him?

Jim has claimed these points..since he won’t ...maybe you’d like to defend these:

1. PGA Tour players are inconsistent. This is because their methods of swinging are flawed.

2. Stillness is power. In fact, tour players are actually losing power by shifting their weight.

3. This isn’t just a method for higher handicappers..this method can even improve the most elite players.

Jim is a nice guy, sort of. Unfortunately he’s a bit of an ass too. He has a pre-scripted routine of responses that have grown tiresome. I joined his course. If you read comments on YouTube you’ll often read ‘ join my class you’ll see.’ You won’t. Jim has no videos that show his swing speeds and how he productively hits long irons and driver. One slow motion driver swing. That’s it.

Why the beef here? Because Jim repeatedly claims his method is superior to the ‘traditional’ method. He claims pros are flawed and inconsistent. Yet after 30 years of teaching his method has yet to produce a player on any tour, men or women. 30 years. Hell you’re probably a golf junkie and you just found him..why?

It’s really simple. Jim’s method can probably help a lot of people play better golf. Maybe enjoy it more. Done. That’s it. But to claim the best golfers in the world are inconsistent and less powerful is asinine at best. And when given the chance to prove such claims...he takes his football and walks home and makes some snarky comment about taking the higher ground.

[The Flush]

This reminds me of youth baseball forums discussions about Mike Marshalls pitching technique (that he developed after he was out of MLB) and how it is the safest way to pitch to avoid Tommy John surgery, but has never produced an MLB pitcher.