"Playing From a Position" à la Jim Venetos

[TheWoodBoss]

I watched some of Jim's videos and tried to incorporate keeping most of my weight on the left side as well as being closed and still. It makes coming from the inside much easier and makes a straight shot or a slight draw happen pretty quickly. My ball striking has become much more predictable. I have had back surgery and limited mobility, I'm 55 now so all that twisting from the traditional swing would cause me back pain. I cut and split a full cord of oak firewood every week so I am in descent physical shape, I just know my limits. I have no delusions of becoming a pro or scratch golfer, I just want to get around the course with some consistency and see how good I can score. I was an arm wrestler years back so my arms and shoulders are strong, I incorporate a bit more shoulder turn than Jim perhaps. I'm no long hitter off the tee with my 3 wood but I'll take 220 off the tee straight down the fairway rather than 260 into the woods. Guys that can pull off the PGA style swing are amazing and I respect that, but for me, it's not happening. Maybe some will say it's limiting my potential to use Jim's swing but I know it's not because I could not practice as much or be as consistent with a traditional swing. Jim's swing will help you stop duffing quicker, I'll tell you that !!

Edited June 4, 2019 by TheWoodBoss

[62toyou]

1 hour ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I would like to chime in here. I have tried to find a video of Jim, or somebody using his method hitting a driver and I can't find one. I have found several videos on YouTube of Jim TALKING about hitting a driver. I've found a couple of him HOLDING a driver while talking about it. But I can't find any of him actually hitting one. I was hoping to find a video of him hitting driver with some form of feedback device. (i.e. trackman, GC Quad, etc...) But I can't even find one of him demonstrating hitting a driver. 

I am not saying this method won't work. I am not saying there are no videos of this method with a driver. What I AM saying is that I can't find any videos of him hitting a driver. PLEASE post or link one. 

Please post a link. I looked and haven't been able to find them.

http://www.powerchalk.com/video/102708_713C5557-3A6C-6838-BBA3-D83397CF2712/play

 

[62toyou]

1 hour ago, TheWoodBoss said:

I watched some of Jim's videos and tried to incorporate keeping most of my weight on the left side as well as being closed and still. It makes coming from the inside much easier and makes a straight shot or a slight draw happen pretty quickly. My ball striking has become much more predictable. I have had back surgery and limited mobility, I'm 55 now so all that twisting from the traditional swing would cause me back pain. I cut and split a full cord of oak firewood every week so I am in descent physical shape, I just know my limits. I have no delusions of becoming a pro or scratch golfer, I just want to get around the course with some consistency and see how good I can score. I was an arm wrestler years back so my arms and shoulders are strong, I incorporate a bit more shoulder turn than Jim perhaps. I'm no long hitter off the tee with my 3 wood but I'll take 220 off the tee straight down the fairway rather than 260 into the woods. Guys that can pull off the PGA style swing are amazing and I respect that, but for me, it's not happening. Maybe some will say it's limiting my potential to use Jim's swing but I know it's not because I could not practice as much or be as consistent with a traditional swing. Jim's swing will help you stop duffing quicker, I'll tell you that !!

Well said.  This may not be a swing for all, but at least for a few of us it is heaven sent.  Even if you do lose distance (I didn't) and your friends look at you oddly (mine did), the total ease of mastering this swing (or an adaptation) makes it all worthwhile. Scoff if you must, but I remain one happy golfer.

[Pretzel]

On 6/4/2019 at 8:51 AM, 62toyou said:

http://www.powerchalk.com/video/102708_713C5557-3A6C-6838-BBA3-D83397CF2712/play

That's good to finally have a video of the driver with his swing, though watching it I noticed a couple of things that are good avenues for discussion. Please do note before we get started that these comments are in relation to using the Venetos swing in high levels of competition. It has advantages for the beginner or the weekend golfer who just wants to avoid a slice and get started in the game without much practice. On a shorter course I could even picture someone getting to between a scratch and 5 handicap with this swing and competing well in club tournaments.

In this post I'm going to be discussing the pitfalls of the swing as it relates to competing in state or national level amateur tournaments and professional tournaments of all levels, where the norm is championship level courses that will usually exceed 7,000 yards in length and pretty regularly play beyond 7,200 yards. If these courses aren't that long, then they're penal in other ways by having narrow and/or tree-lined fairways that prevent you from hitting large curves.

Contact was made right about at the 31 second mark, and the ball reaches its apex at about the 34 second mark and is losing altitude before it's even out of view in the video. Considering the video is at about 1/2 speed this means the apex was reached in about 1.5-2 seconds real time, meaning a total tee shot hangtime of only 3-4 seconds. The median on tour is 6.2 seconds and the shortest of any guy playing in those tournaments is still 5.6 seconds. The shortest hitter on tour, Scott Langley with an average of 269.8 yards, has an average hang time of 5.7 seconds.

Hang time isn't everything, of course, but it is a good indication of the amount of power in a swing. It would appear that this video supports the idea that the Jim Venetos swing lacks power overall. This isn't me bashing the method as useless, because I can see how it would be useful for a beginner or especially someone who is struggling to control a slice, it's just me stating a honest fact about the swing from what I can see and what I have read and heard. The Venetos swing would struggle to keep up on the championship courses played in tournaments for top amateurs and any level of professional.

The second concern is just how much that ball is curving from right to left. Based on the overall appearance of the ball flight (@iacas can probably judge better, he's got a LOT of practice at judging launch numbers from video and watching people hit), that ball might be carrying 200-215 yards but it still looks like it is curving at least 20 yards from right to left in the air. A big draw/hook like that is definitely a welcome sight for anyone who struggles with a slice, but it does give me pause since the spin axis must be severely tilted to get that much curve on a tee shot that isn't exactly a bomb.

Longer tee shots will drift further to the side with the same spin axis as a shorter tee shot simply because they have more time to go off course, but with that same spin axis a tee shot that carries 260 yards or more is going to be curving at least 30 yards if not more. Assuming a player with the Venetos swing could somehow find the power to keep up with the short hitters on tour, they would have a rough time with the narrower courses that can be played in higher levels of competition. Merion Golf Club, for example, has fairways that are only 20-30 yards wide for the most part and many of those fairways are lined with trees. You can't aim the ball 15 yards to the right of the fairway on these tight courses to account for that 30+ yard curve, it just doesn't work. Trust me, I know - I used to play a 30-40 yard "draw" off the tee with 260-280 yards of driving distance as my normal shot. There were many courses and tournaments that I struggled at simply because there wasn't enough room for me to be able to hit the fairway without making swing changes to manage my way around that course.

The swing, like I said before, could be easy to pick up for beginners or a quick fix for someone who is slicing the ball. It leaves a lot to be desired though when it comes to competing favorably at high levels of competition.

 

[ChetlovesMer]

On 6/4/2019 at 10:51 AM, 62toyou said:

http://www.powerchalk.com/video/102708_713C5557-3A6C-6838-BBA3-D83397CF2712/play

 

Thank you for posting. First time I've seen him hit driver. What I find interesting is it still looks like he catches the ball on the upswing. 

 

On 6/4/2019 at 11:17 AM, 62toyou said:

This may not be a swing for all, but at least for a few of us it is heaven sent.  Even if you do lose distance (I didn't) and your friends look at you oddly (mine did), the total ease of mastering this swing (or an adaptation) makes it all worthwhile. Scoff if you must, but I remain one happy golfer.

I'm surprised your friends look at you oddly. I have seen way uglier swings than this both on the driving range and out on the course. 

[Z1philb]

Found  Jim Venetos on YouTube  and watched several of his videos.  As a Senior golfer who has been playing golf for over 60 years, I liked what I saw because it is getting harder and harder to make the moves on the ball that the young player do.  I tried his swing today after hitting about 20 practices balls.  The  results were as follows: My score was 79, shanked two balls with short irons both went in the water so it cost me about 4 of the 79 strokes.  Driver was straight and lost no distance. Most iron shots were slightly longer but had a gentle fade rather than the draw I was expecting. Fairway woods and hybrids were straight with a low trajectory. His chipping was similar to what I already do. The short shots 30 to 75 yards were inconsistent some bordering on real bad, others were great.  I am going to try this for a few more rounds before I decide if I change to this method.  As for the comments on pain due to the setup and left side stationary, I had no issues whatsoever.  Trying to figure out how much to turn inward.on the initial alignment was a guessing game.  I also noticed that many thought you had to line up far right of the target.  I tried to keep my club head lined up at the pin or target I picked .  The ball was only slightly offline right or left of line up. For those considering this method, I hope this description of my round will help you.   NOTE - This is a modified single swing plane method.

[TRUCKER]

On 6/5/2019 at 9:41 AM, Pretzel said:

That's good to finally have a video of the driver with his swing, though watching it I noticed a couple of things that are good avenues for discussion. Please do note before we get started that these comments are in relation to using the Venetos swing in high levels of competition. It has advantages for the beginner or the weekend golfer who just wants to avoid a slice and get started in the game without much practice. On a shorter course I could even picture someone getting to between a scratch and 5 handicap with this swing and competing well in club tournaments.

In this post I'm going to be discussing the pitfalls of the swing as it relates to competing in state or national level amateur tournaments and professional tournaments of all levels, where the norm is championship level courses that will usually exceed 7,000 yards in length and pretty regularly play beyond 7,200 yards. If these courses aren't that long, then they're penal in other ways by having narrow and/or tree-lined fairways that prevent you from hitting large curves.

Contact was made right about at the 31 second mark, and the ball reaches its apex at about the 34 second mark and is losing altitude before it's even out of view in the video. Considering the video is at about 1/2 speed this means the apex was reached in about 1.5-2 seconds real time, meaning a total tee shot hangtime of only 3-4 seconds. The median on tour is 6.2 seconds and the shortest of any guy playing in those tournaments is still 5.6 seconds. The shortest hitter on tour, Scott Langley with an average of 269.8 yards, has an average hang time of 5.7 seconds.

Hang time isn't everything, of course, but it is a good indication of the amount of power in a swing. It would appear that this video supports the idea that the Jim Venetos swing lacks power overall. This isn't me bashing the method as useless, because I can see how it would be useful for a beginner or especially someone who is struggling to control a slice, it's just me stating a honest fact about the swing from what I can see and what I have read and heard. The Venetos swing would struggle to keep up on the championship courses played in tournaments for top amateurs and any level of professional.

The second concern is just how much that ball is curving from right to left. Based on the overall appearance of the ball flight (@iacas can probably judge better, he's got a LOT of practice at judging launch numbers from video and watching people hit), that ball might be carrying 200-215 yards but it still looks like it is curving at least 20 yards from right to left in the air. A big draw/hook like that is definitely a welcome sight for anyone who struggles with a slice, but it does give me pause since the spin axis must be severely tilted to get that much curve on a tee shot that isn't exactly a bomb.

Longer tee shots will drift further to the side with the same spin axis as a shorter tee shot simply because they have more time to go off course, but with that same spin axis a tee shot that carries 260 yards or more is going to be curving at least 30 yards if not more. Assuming a player with the Venetos swing could somehow find the power to keep up with the short hitters on tour, they would have a rough time with the narrower courses that can be played in higher levels of competition. Merion Golf Club, for example, has fairways that are only 20-30 yards wide for the most part and many of those fairways are lined with trees. You can't aim the ball 15 yards to the right of the fairway on these tight courses to account for that 30+ yard curve, it just doesn't work. Trust me, I know - I used to play a 30-40 yard "draw" off the tee with 260-280 yards of driving distance as my normal shot. There were many courses and tournaments that I struggled at simply because there wasn't enough room for me to be able to hit the fairway without making swing changes to manage my way around that course.

The swing, like I said before, could be easy to pick up for beginners or a quick fix for someone who is slicing the ball. It leaves a lot to be desired though when it comes to competing favorably at high levels of competition.

 

🤦‍♂️...What a dumb post. Take a look at the handicaps posted by the members here. Do you really think 97% of the people on this forum will ever be playing at the highest level in state/national, amateur or professional tournaments? Every time somebody comes on here with different swing instruction, they are attacked, and end up leaving the forum. There should be a disclaimer when joining here that states, "Don't bother with any ideas unless the long standing members agree with them".

[Jim Venetos]

If it hurts you’re doing it wrong.

[ChetlovesMer]

I saw a mature gentleman playing what looked like the Jim Venetos swing at a course near my house just this past weekend. He looked to be mid-70's to early-80's (age, I don't know his score). 

Anyway, he had a handicapped flag on his cart which allows him to take it anywhere besides the green and bunkers. He looked to me to have a bunch of physical limitations. If the Jim Venetos swing-style gets him out there, then God love him for getting to play the game. 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, TRUCKER said:

🤦‍♂️...What a dumb post. Take a look at the handicaps posted by the members here. Do you really think 97% of the people on this forum will ever be playing at the highest level in state/national, amateur or professional tournaments? Every time somebody comes on here with different swing instruction, they are attacked, and end up leaving the forum. There should be a disclaimer when joining here that states, "Don't bother with any ideas unless the long standing members agree with them".

Not true at all, @TRUCKER. If something works for you, and you're not trying to play golf at a higher level than what you're achieving now, nobody's ever really had a problem with that.

But when talking about the swing, and claims made by some people, then you're talking more swing theory, more "how it applies to everyone," etc. That's where discussions about limitations, false claims, etc. become relevant.

Just like this:

32 minutes ago, ChetlovesMer said:

I saw a mature gentleman playing what looked like the Jim Venetos swing at a course near my house just this past weekend. He looked to be mid-70's to early-80's (age, I don't know his score). 

Anyway, he had a handicapped flag on his cart which allows him to take it anywhere besides the green and bunkers. He looked to me to have a bunch of physical limitations. If the Jim Venetos swing-style gets him out there, then God love him for getting to play the game. 

If you want to employ a swing that has some built-in limitations (whether by choice or some physical necessity or something), great. Just say that, and then why would you care about what others are saying when they're discussing the "theory" side of things?

[Jim Venetos]

I welcome anyone here to debunk this theory...I teach a universal set up position that presets the movements for a shallow, circular and descending swing and all that is required of the golfer is to simply keep their weight still during the swing to create powerful and consistent ball flight. 

It’s been proven to be anatomically sound by a doctor of kinesiology, which means it doesn’t do unnecessary damage to the body and dynamically efficient by the Titleist Performance Institute, which means ball flight dynamics are premier. 

Enjoy!!

 

Stay Still,

 

Jim

 

 

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, Jim Venetos said:

I welcome anyone here to debunk this theory

@Jim Venetos, we've posted a few times, and you've ducked the questions, made claims that you can't back up, or used phrases like "premier ball flight dynamics."

11 minutes ago, Jim Venetos said:

I teach a universal set up position that presets the movements for a shallow, circular and descending swing and all that is required of the golfer is to simply keep their weight still during the swing to create powerful and consistent ball flight.

But not as powerful as what others might call the "traditional" swing, because you're actively turning off some sources of power, or diminishing their use.

11 minutes ago, Jim Venetos said:

It’s been proven to be anatomically sound by a doctor of kinesiology, which means it doesn’t do unnecessary damage to the body

Already discussed in this topic. Any kind of golf swing can do "damage to the body" because it's a somewhat violent motion, repeated many times. Hell, people get carpal tunnel syndrome from TYPING all day, every day.

You can get a doctor to say anything if you pay them enough.

Throwback Thursday: When Doctors Prescribed 'Healthy' Cigarette Brands

---

Don’t be foolish, take your doctor’s advice: Smoke a fresh cigarette. From the 1930s to the 1950s, advertising’s most powerful phrase—“doctors recommend”—was paired with the world’s deadliest consumer...

When Cigarette Companies Used Doctors to Push Smoking - HISTORY

---

Before studies showed that cigarettes caused cancer, tobacco companies recruited the medical community for their ads.

I'm not saying it's as bad as that, but… the golf swing is not an overall "healthy" thing to do. Sure, if you have a limited swing with less motion and less torque and lower speeds, etc. then it may be "healthier" or whatever, but your back, wrists, knees, etc. are still being subjected to forces beyond what's "normal."

11 minutes ago, Jim Venetos said:

and dynamically efficient by the Titleist Performance Institute, which means ball flight dynamics are premier.

Oh man, gotta get me some of them "premier ball flight dynamics".

[Jim Venetos]

I can’t say you’ve debunked anything but your attitude is why I don’t reply to your posts. Enjoy lording over this forum. I’m going to back to helping golfers shoot under par. 

As the brilliant John Lennon said....Give peace a chance. 

[Double Mocha Man]

8 minutes ago, Jim Venetos said:

I can’t say you’ve debunked anything but your attitude is why I don’t reply to your posts. Enjoy lording over this forum. I’m going to back to helping golfers shoot under par. 

As the brilliant John Lennon said....Give peace a chance. 

Or, "Give par a chance".  That's all I am saying.

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, Jim Venetos said:

I can’t say you’ve debunked anything but your attitude is why I don’t reply to your posts. Enjoy lording over this forum.

Translation: "I have nothing to actually say, so I'm going to go ad hominem and attack the person who isn't just blindly accepting my 'premier ball flight dynamics' talk instead."

If I "lorded over" anything here, I'd probably just stop you from posting. We wouldn't even have this topic. Instead, I ask you questions, engage in discussions with you (or attempt to, if you weren't busy ducking out of them at any opportunity), and actively give away a bunch of my own information and help people here on the forum play better golf.

You, from my perspective, just come on now and then, throw a few things out there about how great your "swing" is, and then when challenged, find new and creative ways to duck out.

9 minutes ago, Jim Venetos said:

I’m going to back to helping golfers shoot under par.

🤦‍♂️

Dude, I do that too.

9 minutes ago, Jim Venetos said:

As the brilliant John Lennon said....Give peace a chance. 

This has nothing to do with "peace." I… wait for it… disagree with the statements you've made about golf. And I've asked you to prove or clarify or at least discuss some of them.

That's it.

[boogielicious]

36 minutes ago, Jim Venetos said:

I can’t say you’ve debunked anything but your attitude is why I don’t reply to your posts. Enjoy lording over this forum. I’m going to back to helping golfers shoot under par. 

As the brilliant John Lennon said....Give peace a chance. 

He also said, “Instant Karma is gonna get you.”

You keep ducking questions and then claim that folks here have attitude. Just answer the questions. It is a discussion.

[phillyk]

@Jim Venetos Gosh isn’t the whole point, as golf professionals/instructors, to help make golfers better and have them enjoy the game more? Claiming one way works better than another and then dipping out as soon as we try to ask why is the attitude of poor instruction imo. Defend your stance, maybe we’ll learn something, maybe not. But that’s the point. Share, discuss, and grow the game of golf. 

[Z1philb]

Used Jim Venetos method again yesterday.  Shot 78, not the best putting day.  Again Driver was about the same, fairway wood and hybrids were slightly longer.  Irons were also slightly longer but still experiencing slight fade instead of the draw I was expecting.  The 30 to 50 yard wedge shots were sporadic, but this was never my shot even when I was younger and a 2 handicap.  This method will produce consistent shots with less “moving parts”.  For golfers who have aches, pains or a minor disability (for me that’s multiple knee surgeries) this system will work.