Jason Day Spits at Pace of Play, Vows to Slow Down

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Overall, my point is that it doesnt matter if the last group is two holes behind. If hypothetically thats the pace the final group is making with no objection from partners, just let them have at it. 

No.

[Groucho Valentine]

1 minute ago, saevel25 said:

All groups need to play by the same rules. Why should the last group get a benefit over the field? 

 

Because with the way the tour enforces it, pace of play is a choice. Nobody is stopping the guy in the first group out at playing at his own pace. 

1 minute ago, iacas said:

No.

What brilliant commentary. You should write for Golf Digest. 

[MRR]

18 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I agree completely.  Just like the rules of golf, the pace of play rules have to apply to each and every player, for every hole they play.  If a group is significantly behind, as defined by the rules, that means they're playing slower than every single group ahead of them all day.   Put them on the clock.  Apply stroke penalties if appropriate.  If it costs even one player a win, every single player will find a way to speed up, so it doesn't happen to them when they're near the lead.

Part of the problem with this is that it is hard to draft a rule that is inherently fair when there are dozens of variables at play.

What if a golfer is "within time parameters" on every shot, but he uses every last second he has and thus falls further behind?

What of another player to certainly violates time rules on five shots, but all his others were so fast that his total pace of play is must quicker than the earlier example?

How do you enforce a rule for a player to stopped his swing due to excessive cheering at a nearby green and had to restart?  What about if the player only claims that, but his partner says that the noise wasn't "excessive"?

 

I'm all for having rules and at least one of those rules being to move it along.  I'm not sure I agree with stroke penalties, though.  I'm more in favor of warnings and then increasing fines on players after the tournament.  This would not affect the round itself, but does lead to deterrents for future behavior and other golfers.

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Because with the way the tour enforces it, pace of play is a choice. Nobody is stopping the guy in the first group out at playing at his own pace.

That's not really true. They're still subject to pace of play policies. They just never need to worry about them because they often play well below the required pace.

9 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

What brilliant commentary. You should write for Golf Digest. 

No need to be a jerk about it. The last group should not be given however much time they need. In other words, "no" to what you said.

[colin007]

can a tour player leave his group? i mean, is it against the rules? if its a friday and im paired with Day and Speef, and we fall two holes behind, am i allowed to say "see ya later, a-holes"? and then go catch up to the group in front?

[DaveP043]

42 minutes ago, MRR said:

 I'm more in favor of warnings and then increasing fines on players after the tournament.  This would not affect the round itself, but does lead to deterrents for future behavior and other golfers.

They already have this system.  A player gets fined for being "on the clock" too many times, with escalating fines if he has "bad times" while on the clock.  The fines are not a deterrent to the more successful players, they're not large enough to make a dent in a million dollar winner's check.  Unfortunately, if you made the fines high enough to actually influence the "stars", a single fine on a lesser player could bankrupt him.  I believe the only way to influence the slow but successful players is to assess penalty strokes, in accordance with the rules already in place.

[MRR]

6 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

 if you made the fines high enough to actually influence the "stars", a single fine on a lesser player could bankrupt him.  

That makes no sense to me.  Sure, a "star" can go longer before getting hurt, but if the fines increase exponentially, then it will eventually happen.  Likewise, a "lesser" player gets hurt after only a couple warnings and then a fine.  It might take Kevin Na ten penalties and a latest fine of $125,000.00 to change his routine, but the "lesser" player should figure it out after the second fine of $5,000.00.

 

If this rule is actually on the books (and I have no reason to doubt you), then the issue isn't about changing the rules or adding stroke penalties, it's about actually enforcing the rule that exists.

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, MRR said:

If this rule is actually on the books (and I have no reason to doubt you), then the issue isn't about changing the rules or adding stroke penalties, it's about actually enforcing the rule that exists.

I think that's what many of us have suggested.  The existing rules still may be ineffective, but I don't think we can evaluate that until we know that they've been consistently enforced.

And on a separate matter, welcome to TheSandTrap!  

[Zeph]

1 hour ago, saevel25 said:

All groups need to play by the same rules. Why should the last group get a benefit over the field? 

Yup. I think it's the rules that has to govern this issue. We can complain all we want about players playing slow, but as long as they are allowed to within the rules, they won't be forced to change.

[MRR]

11 minutes ago, Zeph said:

Yup. I think it's the rules that has to govern this issue. We can complain all we want about players playing slow, but as long as they are allowed to within the rules, they won't be forced to change.

Seems to be more that they are allowed to despite the rules.

 

Frankly, I'd be a bit more interested in allowing them to play at whatever pace they want, and have the broadcast be a five-minute delay.  Then I might not have to watch someone fool the producers by taking twenty practice shots when the TV could have been showing two other players sink 20-foot putts.

[Piz]

There is one golf course, in my area, that strictly enforces pace of play.  As a result...pace of play is never an issue there.  Slow players play slow because they can; not because the game requires it.

[Golfingdad]

1 hour ago, MRR said:

Part of the problem with this is that it is hard to draft a rule that is inherently fair when there are dozens of variables at play.

What if a golfer is "within time parameters" on every shot, but he uses every last second he has and thus falls further behind?

What of another player to certainly violates time rules on five shots, but all his others were so fast that his total pace of play is must quicker than the earlier example?

How do you enforce a rule for a player to stopped his swing due to excessive cheering at a nearby green and had to restart?  What about if the player only claims that, but his partner says that the noise wasn't "excessive"?

I agree.  This kind of alludes to the complaint that Snedeker had about Days comments that was linked upthread.  You are a fast player stuck in a group with a slow player, and it's clearly said slow players fault you've fallen behind, and now you have a couple of situations like the above, and you're now stressing because of the threat of a penalty stroke through no fault of your own.  That's not very fair in my book.

Another one that comes to mind:

Spieth and Day are in a two man race for the US Open on Sunday afternoon with Spieth in the second to last group and Day in the final group.  Both are playing slow as molasses, but Day's slow play is masked by the fact that Spieth is equally slow, such that he hasn't fallen behind.  He's just barely keeping within the distance required to be put on the clock solely because of how slow Spieth is.  Spieth gets a penalty stroke and loses by one to Day.

Or perhaps you guys are suggesting that maybe you don't care about this type of thing happening once - especially if it sends a message to all of the slow players that it could happen to them too if they don't clean up their act?  I don't know that I'd agree, but I could certainly see that point of view. :)

[DaveP043]

8 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Or perhaps you guys are suggesting that maybe you don't care about this type of thing happening once - especially if it sends a message to all of the slow players that it could happen to them too if they don't clean up their act?  I don't know that I'd agree, but I could certainly see that point of view. :)

I think this is what I've tried to say, even if I haven't made it completely clear.  I don't think it would take more than one or two occasions where a "star" gets a penalty stroke for everyone to change their habits a little.  I don't believe that penalizing the guy who is #96 on the money list will have the same effect, even if he's in the lead at the time, I think the top players will still think "They won't penalize ME.".  I recognize that not every instance will be "fair", but there are rules, and they should be enforced.  I've also said that if Player A, the money winner in 20__ and the tour's most popular player, truly can't play well while playing at a reasonable pace, there's player B who CAN do just that, and he'll be the popular and successful player in a year or two.  We'll be asking "What ever happened to Player A?" just like the thread about Hunter Mahan.  

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Spieth and Day are in a two man race for the US Open on Sunday afternoon with Spieth in the second to last group and Day in the final group.  Both are playing slow as molasses, but Day's slow play is masked by the fact that Spieth is equally slow, such that he hasn't fallen behind.  He's just barely keeping within the distance required to be put on the clock solely because of how slow Spieth is.  Spieth gets a penalty stroke and loses by one to Day.

In that case, you have no real way of knowing that Day is playing slowly.

You can only play as fast as "staying with the group ahead of you."

If I encounter slow play on the golf course I might putt at the last hole if nobody's there. I might go to the restroom. I might eat a sandwich sitting in my cart instead of driving down the fairway.

I'm not slow, but if there's nowhere to go, I can't prove that I'm fast, nor can you prove I'm slow.

At the USGA's national championships (except their Opens?(, the system is simple:

• You're expected to get the flag in the hole by a certain time.
• If you miss that time, but you're within x minutes of the group ahead of you, you're still fine.
• If you miss both times, you get a warning.
• If you catch up and stay caught up, that's where it ends.
• If you get another bad time, you may be subject to a penalty.

They can observe your group - any player at any time can ask an official to observe the group - so the penalties are given out not blindly but with reason and can be given to an individual or the whole group if it's warranted.

When I would warn a group that they were off their time, the software also provided a notice to the group that followed them: the warned group would likely be speeding up, and so the players behind them that may have gotten accustomed to the slower pace appreciated knowing that they should be careful to pay attention as the previous group would likely be picking up the pace.

[Golfingdad]

32 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I think this is what I've tried to say, even if I haven't made it completely clear.  I don't think it would take more than one or two occasions where a "star" gets a penalty stroke for everyone to change their habits a little.  I don't believe that penalizing the guy who is #96 on the money list will have the same effect, even if he's in the lead at the time, I think the top players will still think "They won't penalize ME.".  I recognize that not every instance will be "fair", but there are rules, and they should be enforced.  I've also said that if Player A, the money winner in 20__ and the tour's most popular player, truly can't play well while playing at a reasonable pace, there's player B who CAN do just that, and he'll be the popular and successful player in a year or two.  We'll be asking "What ever happened to Player A?" just like the thread about Hunter Mahan.  

Completely agree with the bold.  Said exactly the same thing when the argument came up in the thread about banning the anchored putting stroke.  "It's not fair to Tim Clark and Karl Petterson and Keegan Bradley."  So?  Just like with Mahan, we forget about those guys until somebody mentions it because there is ALWAYS somebody else there to fill the void.

Out of sight, out of mind.

28 minutes ago, iacas said:

At the USGA's national championships (except their Opens?(, the system is simple:

• You're expected to get the flag in the hole by a certain time.
• If you miss that time, but you're within x minutes of the group ahead of you, you're still fine.
• If you miss both times, you get a warning.
• If you catch up and stay caught up, that's where it ends.
• If you get another bad time, you may be subject to a penalty.

Yeah, somewhat similar - but much simpler since they don't have the same manpower - at the GC AM tour events and SCGA events I've played around here.  First group(s) out have a time par to meet and subsequent groups have to stay within a certain time of the group ahead.  In fact, here is one of the sheets:

[Golfingdad]

Should've added this to my last post to you @DaveP043 

 

[Missouri Swede]

4 hours ago, colin007 said:

can a tour player leave his group? i mean, is it against the rules? if its a friday and im paired with Day and Speef, and we fall two holes behind, am i allowed to say "see ya later, a-holes"? and then go catch up to the group in front?

They've got to be able to verify each other's score and sign the other scorecard in the scoring tent. So I don't think they may do that.

[Groucho Valentine]

On January 11, 2017 at 0:59 PM, Golfingdad said:

Completely agree with the bold.  Said exactly the same thing when the argument came up in the thread about banning the anchored putting stroke.  "It's not fair to Tim Clark and Karl Petterson and Keegan Bradley."  So?  Just like with Mahan, we forget about those guys until somebody mentions it because there is ALWAYS somebody else there to fill the void.

Out of sight, out of mind.

Yeah, somewhat similar - but much simpler since they don't have the same manpower - at the GC AM tour events and SCGA events I've played around here.  First group(s) out have a time par to meet and subsequent groups have to stay within a certain time of the group ahead.  In fact, here is one of the sheets:

We get that sheet, too. Still end up playing 5+ hour rounds, sometimes. The associations i play in (MET, NJSGA, GAP) dont really enforce pace of play at all. They're not going to upset people and not have them return again, which means less registration fees taken. Ive seen the USGA give out warnings during US open qualifying, but never a penalty.