Bowed wrist at impact, is it a result or intentional

[Rorys7iron]

Ive a strong grip, so naturally my left wrist is quite cupped at address. i find it difficult to flatten my wrist at top of backswing and when i get tired during a round i tend to severely cup my wrist at top of bs and flip the club at impact.

ive found if i point my left elbow at my left hip it helps a natural feeling of flattening the wrist, but do you intentionally flatten your wrist during the takeaway or let it come naturally on downswing, because i cant seem to do it unless i really intentionally twist during backswing.

[Piz]

The less I think about the particulars, while playing, the better I do.  The ten dollar word for what you describe is proprioception: the awareness of where your body is in space/time.  It can work while developing habits on the practice tee.  Out on the course, for me anyway, it's all about the club head path thru the ball - and what I want the result to be - excepting the basics of form.

[Rainmaker]

At impact, it's a result.  At least for me...I tend to get to the top of my backswing with my left wrist a bit cupped and then let it flatten before I start down.  That feeling of the flat left wrist at the top of my backswing is important to me.  From the top, there are several things that can happen that will prevent a flat left wrist at impact...assuming none of them do, then my left wrist position at impact will largely be determined by the amount of force I put into my forearm/wrist rotation.  If I rotate them hard, my hands will be in front of the ball at impact - ie - left wrist bowed.  If I rotate sort of the right amount..which is still pretty hard but not super hard, my left wrist will be flat.   That is, if I haven't hosed up something along the way.  

Probably for most people, having a flat left wrist at impact is not something to think directly about - but more something to achieve indirectly . .ie .. with a better turn, less sway, better club path, etc.  

[Ernest Jones]

I my experience, consciously bowing the wrist lead to a loss of speed. Conscious manipulation rarely yields optimum results. It can be a good tool for "working on your swing" at lower speeds and partial swings ie: range work, but detrimental to the real deal ie: playing golf. 

Of course, YMMV.  

[nevets88]

The stronger your grip the less bowed it'll look at Impact it's better it looks as it does at setup. Those with weaker grips have more of a bowed lead wrist look at impact. 

Whether intentional or caused by other big body movements it's not good for the lead wrist to cup more from the top. I would do whatever it takes to not do it whether intentional or as a consequence of other movements. I intentionally do it (I feel I cup more from the start and bow from the top) and the downside to that is you can over do it and there's more timing involved but I tended to cup too much from A4. Some instructors prefer it happen "naturally". Whatever the case, you want to verify what you're doing with video. 

[Marty2019]

I've been working on getting my left wrist flatter at the top of the back swing, not cupping it, and the only way I can do it so far is to keep the club face more closed in the takeaway.  Instead of swinging the club face open on the back swing, which causes a cupped wrist, I  hinge my right wrist straight back with the club face more closed.  

I cannot transition from a cupped wrist to a bowed or flat wrist right now.  I'm just unable.  It seems to put a loop into my back swing that I find hard to calibrate consistently.  That's why I'm trying to do it right off the bat on the back swing. 

Another thing I am doing is the pre-set drill.   I take my normal stance and grip, and then hinge my wrists so the club is parallel to the ground and parallel to my target line.  Then I make sure my left wrist is flat.   From there, I rotate my shoulders into a backswing position.   That gives me the feel I should have at the top of the back swing.  You have to hinge your right wrist into the waiter-carrying-a-tray position. 

Pre-set Drill

I would suggest that if you want a bowed left wrist, and you're having trouble doing it on the transition, do the pre-set drill with your wrist bowed to your liking, then rotate your shoulders back to the top of the back swing.   This'll give you the feeling of having your wrist bowed or flat or whatever you're trying for.   Then, hopefully, you can transition into your desired bowing without the pre-set drill. 

Disclaimer: I pretty much suck at this game, so take what I say with a grain of salt. 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2017 by Marty2019

[natureboy]

I think it can be both.

'Soft' wrists from the top and through impact with a good shallowing move / leaving the clubhead behind a bit can likely get you there.

You could also perform a twist with your wrists coming down. For me it feels like I start it around delivery t through to impact (but it probably starts earlier). It's sort of like twisting a towel tight to squeeze out water but with both hands going in the same direction (CCW as you look down at them). The old pros used to call it 'changing the chuck' or 'wringing the towel'. I think this is one manipulation you can get away with, because there's so little moment of inertia around the axis of the shaft that it doesn't take a lot of effort and you're not fighting anything - it's more 'positioning'.

It does close the clubface so unless your hands are ahead at impact, it might not give you the results you want.

Stenson has a strong grip (some might call it neutral these days but it isn't weak). He has what may look like a little cup at address, but the wrist is anatomically flat / neutral. He seems to flatten it so the knuckles are more level with the forearm vs. address so he's got a bit of bow, but not much. Given how fast he swings it may not be conscious.

The address position looks funny in the set below, because he's already started the takeaway and he does a pre-set of his weight into his right side.

But other pros with even stronger grips bow a lot more noticeably.

[Marty2019]

10 hours ago, natureboy said:

I think it can be both.

'Soft' wrists from the top and through impact with a good shallowing move / leaving the clubhead behind a bit can likely get you there.

You could also perform a twist with your wrists coming down. For me it feels like I start it around delivery t through to impact (but it probably starts earlier). It's sort of like twisting a towel tight to squeeze out water but with both hands going in the same direction (CCW as you look down at them). The old pros used to call it 'changing the chuck' or 'wringing the towel'. I think this is one manipulation you can get away with, because there's so little moment of inertia around the axis of the shaft that it doesn't take a lot of effort and you're not fighting anything - it's more 'positioning'.

It does close the clubface so unless your hands are ahead at impact, it might not give you the results you want.

Stenson has a strong grip (some might call it neutral these days but it isn't weak). He has what may look like a little cup at address, but the wrist is anatomically flat / neutral. He seems to flatten it so the knuckles are more level with the forearm vs. address so he's got a bit of bow, but not much. Given how fast he swings it may not be conscious.

The address position looks funny in the set below, because he's already started the takeaway and he does a pre-set of his weight into his right side.

But other pros with even stronger grips bow a lot more noticeably.

None of those left wrists look bowed to me.   They look flat. 

Let me propose the following statement for debate:  If at any point between the address and striking the ball, you cup your right wrist, your left wrist will bow or at least flatten.  

Theoretically, if you address the ball, then without moving anything but the club, lift the club head straight up, at that point you have a cupped left wrist.   If you then further cup your right wrist, you will have a flat or bowed left wrist. 

Just in the last week, I have started trying to flatten my left wrist.  I do it by taking the club back more closed than I have before.  This flattens my left wrist (or bows if you want to do it to an extreme) during the back swing before I have even reached to top of my back swing. 

So this is my question:  What I don't understand is the necessity of introducing  this bowing or flattening of the left wrist as an extra move at the top of the back swing.   What I want to know is, why can't I just flatten (or bow) my left wrist as part of my back swing, by keeping the club head more closed on the take away?  It seems a lot simpler and easier to execute than doing that flattening the club (and the wrist) at the top of the back swing. 

If you take the club back closed enough to flatten your left wrist, in other words, hinge your wrists so the club head stays more closed, then if your first move in transition is to slide your hips toward the target and feel like you're trying to get your right elbow under your left elbow, then you will have a flat (or bowed) left wrist and the shaft will flatten naturally without even thinking about it.  That seems so much simpler than trying to make this bowing the wrist and flattening the shaft at the top of the back swing. 

Edited January 22, 2017 by Marty2019

[saevel25]

2 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

Theoretically, if you address the ball, then without moving anything but the club, lift the club head straight up, at that point you have a cupped left wrist.   If you then further cup your right wrist, you will have a flat or bowed left wrist. 

Depends on the grip. I would not say it is 100% certain that a golfer has a cupped left wrist at address. 

2 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

So this is my question:  What I don't understand is the necessity of introducing  this bowing or flattening of the left wrist as an extra move at the top of the back swing.   

Not every golfer bows or flattens the left wrist right at the top of the backswing. If some golfers start with a more cupped left wrist at address then the movements of the backswing could just gradually get them to a flat or bowed left wrist at the top. Just like some golfers hinge the club earlier or later in the golf swing. 

2 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

It seems a lot simpler and easier to execute than doing that flattening the club (and the wrist) at the top of the back swing. 

Depends on the golfer. Some golfers might struggle with manipulating the club at the beginning of the golf swing. Maybe it doesn't work out well. 

Also, if you get in a good position at the top of the backswing then the movement of the club head can help out flatten it out for you. 

2 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

If you take the club back closed enough to flatten your left wrist (1), in other words, hinge your wrists so the club head stays more closed, then if your first move in transition is to slide your hips toward the target (2) and feel like you're trying to get your right elbow under your left elbow (3), then you will have a flat (or bowed) left wrist and the shaft will flatten naturally without even thinking about it.

You just listed 3 things you have to think about.

Though, if someone works on their elbow position in the downswing it will probably effect the pitch of the golf club. 

[nevets88]

The tl;dr answer is it's both. It's a result of an intention, whether it be intent at setup, transition, body/arms hands movement.

[RandallT]

Just now, nevets88 said:

The tl;dr answer is it's both. It's a result of an intention, whether it be intent at setup, transition, body/arms hands movement.

Yep! This. I think it's the classic example of 4 stages of competence: 

I'm working this exact thing in my lessons. For the past two months, in the "5 min practice" thread you'll see an entry every day for me on flat left wrist.

Every damn day 

At first, I was very conscious of it (intentional). Over time, I think I'm doing the things needed through repetition to make it less conscious and more the result of what comes before it in the swing.

Also, for me, the stronger grip helped me tremendously. My instructor noticed I tended to revert to a weak grip which had the opposite effect of what was stated in the OP. Strengthening my grip has made flattening my left wrist more natural.

Overall, I've found it just takes constant work and focus for weeks (5-10min per day) to get to a point where it starts to go from conscious to unconscious (intentional to result? As phrased in title of post). I'm hoping to be out of this priority soon and then on to the next.

 

[Hatchman]

Just my swing, but, strong left bottom hand and weak upper with slightly cupped right wrist at address.  More pronounced the more the ball is played forward.  During backswing the hands reverse somewhat to a flatter bottom (was the upper) and upper cups setting the club on plane prior to dropping into the swing plane slot at delivery.  

[acerimusdux]

2 hours ago, saevel25 said:

Depends on the grip. I would not say it is 100% certain that a golfer has a cupped left wrist at address.

Yup. Marty is also describing the left wrist cupping when cocked, but not the right. He may have a strong grip with the right. With the right hand a little more on top at address, it might also cup some when the club is lifted.

The grip also determines whether there is a need to flatten or bow the left wrist at the top of the backswing, or even by impact.  Perhaps with a weaker right hand, the OP might also find he would be able to deliver the club with some left wrist cup at impact without flipping.

I believe key #3 was originally referred to as "flat left wrist", but that this was abandoned because the evidence showed it was really grip dependent. Some good golfers are flat, some are cupped, some are bowed. The main challenge for many of us with key #3 (now "inline impact") is to avoid flipping. I wonder how often those problems might be grip related.

 

[natureboy]

6 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

None of those left wrists look bowed to me.   They look flat. 

Let me propose the following statement for debate:  If at any point between the address and striking the ball, you cup your right wrist, your left wrist will bow or at least flatten.  

I hear you. The term itself in regards to golf is a bit imprecise.

In all the pics I posted I see players who are more palmar flexed in the lead wrist at impact than they were at address. The wrist is either flatter or behind relative to the outside of the forearm. So as I describe it they have 'bowed' or 'flattened' the lead wrist relative to address.

I've heard what Stenson's wrist looks like at address described as 'anatomically flat' because the wrist back of the hand when it's in a neutral position is slightly angled to the plane of the forearm. At address under that same approach his wrist would be 'geometrically flat'.

I agree the wrists work symathetically through the grip. All the pics I posted show greater dorsiflexion in the trail wrist at impact relative to the position / angle at address.

6 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

Theoretically, if you address the ball, then without moving anything but the club, lift the club head straight up, at that point you have a cupped left wrist.   If you then further cup your right wrist, you will have a flat or bowed left wrist. 

For the most part I'd agree, and I get your point. But you could address the ball with your hands well forward and with a very weak lead hand grip.

6 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

What I want to know is, why can't I just flatten (or bow) my left wrist as part of my back swing, by keeping the club head more closed on the take away? 

Feel free if you like it or it works for you. I'm not stopping you.

Edited January 22, 2017 by natureboy

[Rainmaker]

What does your left wrist look like at impact, OP?  

If it looks like this . . . 

 

 

Then . . believe it or not (and of course it's just my opinion and I could be wrong and all that) . .it's not really about your left wrist.  The text in the picture says "flipping" but I call it casting . .and I am the world's foremost empirical expert on casting a golf club.  I have actually beaten this problem!!  And I'm proud about it because it was really stupidly difficult . .and it had nothing to do with my left wrist and everything to do with the 100 other things wrong with my golf swing.  

[Blackjack Don]

2 hours ago, Rainmaker said:

What does your left wrist look like at impact, OP?  

If it looks like this . . . 

 

 

Then . . believe it or not (and of course it's just my opinion and I could be wrong and all that) . .it's not really about your left wrist.  The text in the picture says "flipping" but I call it casting . .and I am the world's foremost empirical expert on casting a golf club.  I have actually beaten this problem!!  And I'm proud about it because it was really stupidly difficult . .and it had nothing to do with my left wrist and everything to do with the 100 other things wrong with my golf swing.  

Stupidly difficult. Man do I understand that feeling. This is a favorite subject of mine. I've said before that learning about a flat left wrist was the equivalent of learning I could fold a hand in poker. Everything changed. That doesn't mean it was easy. I'm still working on it.

First, I am completely right-hand dominant. I am drilling with keeping my left hand firm on the club and my right hand gently hanging on. I practice swinging a club with just my left arm, wrist firm and even a bit bowed. When I started doing this, I couldn't hold it. It's been time and effort, but it's about as good as it's going to get. I had to get stronger on the left side.

Boy do I get the 100 other things in my swing that need work. I think when I get fifty fixed, I'll still have to make firm left wrist my only swing thought on the course. When my left wrist collapses, everything goes wrong. When my left wrist leads at impact, the ball goes straight, or with a slight draw. This is the way it works for me, and why it's intentional. It's my weakest link in the swing.

Bearing witness to the importance of the question. I'm a believer in the bowed left wrist, whether it is or isn't.

[Rainmaker]

24 minutes ago, Blackjack Don said:

Stupidly difficult. Man do I understand that feeling. This is a favorite subject of mine. I've said before that learning about a flat left wrist was the equivalent of learning I could fold a hand in poker. Everything changed. That doesn't mean it was easy. I'm still working on it.

First, I am completely right-hand dominant. I am drilling with keeping my left hand firm on the club and my right hand gently hanging on. I practice swinging a club with just my left arm, wrist firm and even a bit bowed. When I started doing this, I couldn't hold it. It's been time and effort, but it's about as good as it's going to get. I had to get stronger on the left side.

Boy do I get the 100 other things in my swing that need work. I think when I get fifty fixed, I'll still have to make firm left wrist my only swing thought on the course. When my left wrist collapses, everything goes wrong. When my left wrist leads at impact, the ball goes straight, or with a slight draw. This is the way it works for me, and why it's intentional. It's my weakest link in the swing.

Bearing witness to the importance of the question. I'm a believer in the bowed left wrist, whether it is or isn't.

 

What finally got me over the hurdle is the move I call "the hand thing"...I know that's no help at all and I asked my teacher just last week, actually, if there was not some kind of name for this move....apparently there is not.  I've seen and read a lot of golf instruction and the only other place I've seen "the hand thing" is in Brian Manzella's video - Confessions of a Former Flipper.  If I recall . .he calls it "put the club on the movie screen"

But it wasn't as simple as just learning "the hand thing" . .oh, no . .couldn't be.  My teacher showed me the hand thing (didn't hammer it - just showed it) in year one . .and I said - "that move makes no sense to me" and in year 2, I said the same thing . .and finally in year 3 I started actually being able to do it.  But in order to be able to do it . .I had to do all these other things first - to get everything lined up or out of the way (respectively . .both mental and physical, lol) to be able to do it.  

So - "The Hand Thing" . . . hell yeah.  Whatever that is, lol.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Rainmaker

[RandallT]

10 hours ago, Rainmaker said:

So - "The Hand Thing" . . . hell yeah.  Whatever that is, lol.

Is there a secret handshake involved with learning this secret hand thing?

Actually I think I know what you mean.  Every day I discover some new thing involved with how the hands and wrists work, and if you'd told me a Cooke years ago about each discovery, it would've meant nothing. Ya gotta go through a process of a ton of things in some general order first- why an instructor is needed!