Modernized Rules Discussion: Areas of the Course

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Hardspoon said:

@Pete's suggestion of a fixed flagstick is probably the way they should go if this does become the rule.

I agree, and that'd be the only way I could stomach this rule. Then there would be no adjusting, no leaning, nothing like that.

But I hope/think/pray that there's no real chance this one sticks.

[NCGolfer]

All the discussion here is exactly why the flagstick rule is a bad rule.  It significantly alters the way the game would be played.  The USGA and R&A are putting it in there for the right reason (pace of play) but I don't think they've truly considered the ramifications...and we've even discussed that it might have the OPPOSITE effect to what they are putting it in for!

[bpburner]

11 hours ago, Braivo said:

The problem with making a two stroke penalty is there is now more incentive to prolong the search. One stroke is the same as "punching out" without all of the time invested to do so. I suppose you could argue it is less of a penalty than actually having to risk punching out, but no less penal than a water hazard. Meh. 

I would like to see the odds of punching out of woods versus hitting a ball that's in the drink.  I would leave it all at a 1 stroke but would venture to guess that getting out of the woods is significantly easier than water.

[bpburner]

I had not fully thought of all of the scenarios that you are all discussing with the flag stick rule and it is now making me question my original thought process.  What I like about it is that we are not all playing in foursomes or with a caddie.  Just the other day I played with 1 other guy racing the sun and on multiple occasions we were both on the front / off the green one would chip and the other was putting prior to the stick being pulled.  We were able to get 9 in and only had about 45 minutes to do so.  If someone was close we pull the pin but if not we continued play.  Golf Channel this morning quoted 7 minutes a round saved.  We didn't have another 7 minutes of daylight.

Edited March 2, 2017 by bpburner
Saved prior to finish.

[saevel25]

When to Replace a Ball That Moves on the Putting Green
I don't mind this. 

Repairing Damage on the Putting Green
Meh, I still think it is too difficult to say for certain what caused the imperfections in the green. 

Touching Line of Play on a Putting Green
Honestly, I think the caddies should do less to help the golfer. Only one of the players is playing the game. Reading putts is part of golf. 

Ball Played From Green Hits Unattended Flagstick in Hole
I hate everything about this rule. It disregards that putting is a skill. Why should a golfer benefit mishitting a putt to get the break from hitting the pin versus a golfer who actually hits a good putt. Honestly, the time saving is minimal at best. Even if a single golfer averages 40 Ft per putt, and if they stop at their ball before going to pull the pin, the time saved would be about 6 minutes. If you have a playing partner that time is greatly decreased as the pin can be pulled while the farthest away golfer is reading their putt. Just a bad rule based around negligible benefits. 

Elimination of Opposite Side Relief for Red Penalty Areas
I don't mind this one. I can't remember when I ever used this option. 

 

[boogielicious]

9 hours ago, No Mulligans said:

Here's an example I find myself often on my home course.  A 2 to 3 footer with significant slope and significant break.  If I baby it to the hole it's hard to make it, if I charge at the hole and lip out I'm going to have a long next putt.  With a flag in I'd be much more comfortable with an aggressive putt.  Same goes for a short straight down hill putt on bumpy poa annua green.  There are a lot of situations where I'd learn to putt more aggressively.

I would add that even if the aggressive stoke had the ball hit the flagstick and pop out of the hole area, it would lose most of its speed and end up closer to the hole.

[DaveP043]

Just a historical note that is at least a little bit relevant.  As recently as the 1956 revision of the rules, there as no penalty for striking an unattended flagstick from any distance.  This was not consistent through the preceding decades.  As early as 1882, the flagstick was required to be removed when the ball was within 20 yards, in stroke play only.  Match play rules varied, for long periods there was no penalty if the ball hit the flagstick, but either side could require that the flagstick be removed.  The penalty for striking the flagstick varied back and forth from one to two strokes in stroke play.  

http://www.ruleshistory.com/green.html

I only bring this up to show that the penalty for hitting the stick with a shot played from the putting green doesn't have a long or continuous history.  I still would prefer to have the penalty remain in place, for reasons many people have outlined previously.

[iacas]

@DaveP043, 57 years or so is a fairly "long history" IMO. 57 years ago we didn't even have a Super Bowl, after all.  A lot has changed in golf in the last 57 years.

[boogielicious]

4 minutes ago, iacas said:

@DaveP043, 57 years or so is a fairly "long history" IMO. 57 years ago we didn't even have a Super Bowl, after all.  A lot has changed in golf in the last 57 years.

But my birth was imminent 57 years ago!

[DaveP043]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

@DaveP043, 57 years or so is a fairly "long history" IMO. 57 years ago we didn't even have a Super Bowl, after all.  A lot has changed in golf in the last 57 years.

It only seems like a long time because you weren't born yet.  To me, on the other hand......

[Big C]

27 minutes ago, iacas said:

@DaveP043, 57 years or so is a fairly "long history" IMO. 57 years ago we didn't even have a Super Bowl, after all.  A lot has changed in golf in the last 57 years.

True, but it kind of goes back to my point that removing the flag stick while putting is not intrinsic to the game of golf. It's been that way for a long time and we are all used to putting that way, but there is nothing about it that is fundamental to the game.

[Golfingdad]

16 hours ago, No Mulligans said:

Here's an example I find myself often on my home course.  A 2 to 3 footer with significant slope and significant break.  If I baby it to the hole it's hard to make it, if I charge at the hole and lip out I'm going to have a long next putt.  With a flag in I'd be much more comfortable with an aggressive putt.  Same goes for a short straight down hill putt on bumpy poa annua green.  There are a lot of situations where I'd learn to putt more aggressively.

A putt that you "charge at the hole and lip out" wasn't going to hit the stick anyway.  

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, Big C said:

True, but it kind of goes back to my point that removing the flag stick while putting is not intrinsic to the game of golf. It's been that way for a long time and we are all used to putting that way, but there is nothing about it that is fundamental to the game.

It is now. We play into a hole, not a hole with a deflecting/blocking/dampening device in it. This isn't disc golf (which itself started playing into a hole, actually, in the ground).

Football used to disallow the forward pass. Good luck getting people to agree it's not a fundamental means of playing offense now.

8 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

A putt that you "charge at the hole and lip out" wasn't going to hit the stick anyway.  

Putts can fly over a tangent and hip the back "corner" of the hole and "lip out."

[No Mulligans]

Giving an in or out flagstick option... That seems to run afoul of the "Play the course as you find it" principle.

[mvmac]

19 hours ago, iacas said:

You can smack them from five feet away and anything that hits the hole at all is pretty likely to go in. People underestimate how much of an advantage the flagstick being in the hole is.

Agree. Next time I get out I'm going to try and experiment with this from short distances and film some of it.

If the rule goes through people will figure it out and it'll catch on. I could totally see this changing how we putt from short distances and how putting is taught. Screw capture speed!

[iacas]

15 minutes ago, mvmac said:

Agree. Next time I get out I'm going to try and experiment with this from short distances and film some of it.

If the rule goes through people will figure it out and it'll catch on. I could totally see this changing how we putt from short distances and how putting is taught. Screw capture speed!

Dave and I hope to film something here soon too.

[Big C]

51 minutes ago, No Mulligans said:

Giving an in or out flagstick option... That seems to run afoul of the "Play the course as you find it" principle.

There is an in or out flagstick option right now. It exists everywhere else but on the green. I have seen Phil Mickelson have his caddy tend and pull the flagstick from 70 yards away.

[Golfingdad]

7 minutes ago, Big C said:

I have seen Phil Mickelson have his caddy tend and pull the flagstick from 70 yards away.

Me too.  And I think that we can all agree that that is just idiotic.  And also him just him being a showman.