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iacas

Modernized Rules Discussion: Areas of the Course

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1 hour ago, iacas said:

This is for the discussion of this portion of the new Modernized Rules.

Areas of the Course

Unplayable Ball in Bunker

Question: What is it a 2 stroke penalty to take an unplayable from the bunker?  What is the rationale?

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2 minutes ago, cutchemist42 said:

Ah okay, read it wrong. I still hate the era of HD cameras but it not being uniform across a whole tourney on every golfer.

Well, they will in the bunkers.  In the hazards or, I should say, "penalty areas" it won't be nearly as much an issue.

1 minute ago, bmartin461 said:

Question: What is it a 2 stroke penalty to take an unplayable from the bunker?  What is the rationale?

Most likely because you are:

  1. Taking a stroke to remove the embedded ball and
  2. Removing the ball from the bunker

You still have the option to take a one stroke penalty to drop the ball in the bunker.

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3 minutes ago, bmartin461 said:

Question: What is it a 2 stroke penalty to take an unplayable from the bunker?  What is the rationale?

 

This extra option would result in a total of two penalty strokes, to make sure that:

  • The penalty is consistent with the significant amount of relief being allowed, and
  • This option does not become commonly used by players who are able to play from a bunker.

 

I literally just clicked the link in your post and copy and pasted the text ;-)

Edited by Pete

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2 minutes ago, Pete said:

 

I literally just clicked the link in your post and copy and pasted the text ;-)

So now you are expecting me to read the information first?  LOL 

Didn't see that the first time.   Oops.

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4 minutes ago, NCGolfer said:

You still have the option to take a one stroke penalty to drop the ball in the bunker.

I think this makes sense, if you want to drop out of the bunker, you "pay" with an extra penalty shot.  This could be a good choice in some of the really deep revetted bunkers, like in Scotland (or at the New Talamore course).

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I've often thought relief in "bunkers" rules have been contradictory.
In Lateral and Water hazards, a player receives full relief, but in bunkers, a player must drop in a bunker.

Drops often leave a player with a fried egg lie leaving a player with a similar situation they are usually taking relief.

Now the USGA wants to give a player an option "with two strokes" to take relief outside a hazard?
This makes no sense, why not make the rules of any and all hazard situations the same?

Quote

Playing from a bunker can be very difficult for some players, especially when the bunker has steep walls.

  • This can present particular problems in stroke play because the player must finish out the hole and so cannot simply pick up and move to the next hole after multiple tries to play the ball from the bunker.
  • Giving those players an option for taking relief outside the bunker would allow them to keep playing rather than be disqualified.


This extra option would result in a total of two penalty strokes, to make sure that:

  • The penalty is consistent with the significant amount of relief being allowed, and
  • This option does not become commonly used by players who are able to play from a bunker.

 

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1 hour ago, iacas said:

I'm in support of this one as I think it will help eliminate some of the confusion and also help with pace of play as the average golfer will be more comfortable with the shot as they can now ground the club and take a practice swing near the spot. 

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Goddammit. I had a whole response typed up and it was removed somehow. And this is the biggest section.

So now my responses are going to be shorter.

When to Replace a Ball That Moves on the Putting Green

I continue not to like that balls that have been marked or not marked are treated differently… but I also don't think this happens all that frequently. So whatever… just put your ball back.

Repairing Damage on the Putting Green

Fine, so long as people don't turn into gardeners. Hopefully this doesn't become a pace of play issue.

Touching Line of Play on a Putting Green

Fine. AimPoint Express just breathed a sigh of relief, but I've said for a long time now that there's no advantage to stepping on your line. And there's no difference between saying "aim here" and touching the green instead of pointing to a spot an inch from the end of your finger.

Ball Played From Green Hits Unattended Flagstick in Hole

Hate this and hope it does not last at all.

Others have mentioned pace of play reasons, but basically, I also don't like that a flagstick leaning away from one player and toward another player results in an advantage and a disadvantage even though they might be the same distance away from the hole.

I hope hope hope hope hope that this proposed rule does not last. I do not like it. I'm being open minded about all of these, but I hate this proposed rule.

26 minutes ago, Pete said:

Edit: Flagsticks that are permanently attached to the base and are built to not lean at all! Problem solved :-D

Edit 2: By the way, this is actually a good idea, but is perhaps a little too drastic for now. 

Wow, yeah. Perhaps they should have done that. It would guarantee that they're straight, eliminating one of my issues. It would eliminate the slow play of players taking it in and putting it out.

I almost like this idea enough that I could say keep this in if this was what it was. Seriously.

23 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I know you do course ratings.  Have you heard whether the current course ratings system is being evaluated in light of the proposed rules changes?

Yeah, but not until late this year or even 2018. We already know how to rate lateral water hazards. Changing those to red "penalty areas" won't require much of a change.

I do wonder if there will be a massive push to update course ratings, as right now I think they have to be done every eight years… some courses will want to bump that up many years.

16 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Unless they change that too, you are not allowed to lean the flagstick in any particular direction.  The way it reads now is that if the flagstick is leaning, you may straighten it.  You may not lean it in a way that is favorable to your shot.  

You know that sometimes when you try to straighten it you discover that it won't stay straight. So people will keep farting around with the flagstick. That's why I hope this one doesn't survive.

Areas the Committee May Mark as Penalty Areas

Fine, but I'd prefer they go all the way. In my reading of the rule I see that you can still have yellow penalty areas? Why? Just make them all red. Most courses probably will anyway. Why have yellow? I don't think it'll be used.

Touching or Moving Loose Impediments or Touching the Ground in a Penalty Area

Fine with this. Carl Pettersson would have not been penalized at Kiawah for brushing that leaf, and that guy that lost in the playoff to Jim Furyk at Hilton Head too.

Expanded Use of Red-Marked Penalty Areas

Fine, again, but why not just use red and eliminate yellow?

Elimination of Opposite Side Relief for Red Penalty Areas

Fine. Almost nobody used this anyway.

Moving or Touching Loose Impediments or Touching Sand in a Bunker

Seems fine by me. Players can remove rocks and pebbles now too. Still can't take practice swings or improve your lie, or touch the area near your ball with the club.

Unplayable Ball in Bunker

12 minutes ago, bmartin461 said:

Question: What is it a 2 stroke penalty to take an unplayable from the bunker?  What is the rationale?

I don't know. Seems odd. One stroke gets you out of a penalty area, but it takes two to get out of a bunker? Seems a bit odd.

I "get it" but for right now I disagree with this one.

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I think a lot of courses will be quick to mark wooded areas as lateral hazards.  I'm not sure if that's a positive development.

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16 minutes ago, Pete said:

You know what I mean. All I'm talking about is rotating the flag stick so the ball can fit in, typically this means rotating it 180 degrees so it no longer leans towards me. 

That's exactly what you aren't allowed to do.  If the flagstick is damaged so that it always leans, you will have the option of leaving it in or having it removed.  I doubt (and hope) that they won't allow you to do anything that makes it more favorable than just straight up and down.  

On some of the courses around here the constant wind causes the flagstick to wallow out the socket that the flagstick plugs into, so that it will never stand straight up.  In that case it's just the luck of the draw.  If the flag is leaning toward me, I pull it.  If it's leaning away, then I may or may not leave it in depending on the situation.

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For the unplayable in the sand? Would still have the option to take a one-penalty stroke for an unplayable lie and drop in the sand?

The flagstick one is interesting to me.  I think lots of players would take it out, as I see so many players take it out when they are putting from off the green.  But as those here on TST know, leaving it in is an advantage.  And one that I would take advantage of, if given the opportunity to leave it in on the green.  But I could see this taking longer time, if there are those that want it in and those that want it out.

There's a course in Maine that i used to play, Sugarloaf Golf Club in Carabassett, which does red stake tree lines already.  When they first opened the course, without the tree lines being red staked, you could get upwards of 6 hour plus rounds.  Going to a local rule that all tree lines are considered red staked areas, sped up the play significantly.  

 

11th Hole.jpg

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2 minutes ago, Fourputt said:
23 minutes ago, Pete said:

You know what I mean. All I'm talking about is rotating the flag stick so the ball can fit in, typically this means rotating it 180 degrees so it no longer leans towards me. 

That's exactly what you aren't allowed to do.  If the flagstick is damaged so that it always leans, you will have the option of leaving it in or having it removed.  I doubt (and hope) that they won't allow you to do anything that makes it more favorable than just straight up and down.

Well I've broken that rule a couple of times then. Thanks for this. I feel like a bit of an idiot for purporting to play by the rules though. 

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5 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

There's a course in Maine that i used to play, Sugarloaf Golf Club in Carabassett, which does this already.  When they first opened the course, without the tree lines being red staked, you could get upwards of 6 hour plus rounds.  Going to a local rule that all tree lines are considered red staked areas, sped up the play significantly.  

 

11th Hole.jpg

I was playing a nice course in MA--Blackstone National--when the ranger yelled at us for hitting provisionals.  He said all the tree lines were lateral hazards and rehitting was needlessly wasting time. 

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35 minutes ago, bmartin461 said:

Question: What is it a 2 stroke penalty to take an unplayable from the bunker?  What is the rationale?

It would still be less penal than it is now.  As it now reads, you drop in the bunker for one stroke or you take stroke and distance.   I've always thought that was too penal.  I think that this is a better way.  One stroke in the bunker (and now you can drop from just an inch so the ball doesn't embed), or two strokes and drop outside the bunker.  

If it was one stroke anywhere, I can see players taking the stroke and dropping, solely to avoid having to hit from sand even when the ball in the bunker is perfectly playable.

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2 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

It would still be less penal than it is now.  As it now reads, you drop in the bunker for one stroke or you take stroke and distance.   I've always thought that was too penal.  I think that this is a better way.  One stroke in the bunker (and now you can drop from just an inch so the ball doesn't embed), or two strokes a drop outside the bunker.  

If it was one stroke anywhere, I can see players taking the stroke and dropping, solely to avoid having to hit from sand even when the ball in the bunker is perfectly playable.

I play with a single digit handicapper right now, that would probably drop out of the bunker if it was a one-stroke penalty every time.  He leaves the ball in the bunker, I would say, close to 50% of the time.  It's painful to watch him hit out of bunkers.

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19 minutes ago, dsc123 said:

I was playing a nice course in MA--Blackstone National--when the ranger yelled at us for hitting provisionals.  He said all the tree lines were lateral hazards and rehitting was needlessly wasting time. 

All tree lined areas should be red hazards, no doubt about it. By far the biggest waste of time I have seen on courses is looking for balls in the woods / tree line. This will basically just legalize what most players do anyway - see ball enter woods, can't find ball, drop where it entered woods, take penalty stroke, continue. 

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1 minute ago, Braivo said:

All tree lined areas should be red hazards, no doubt about it. By far the biggest waste of time I have seen on courses is looking for balls in the woods / tree line. This will basically just legalize what most players do anyway - see ball enter woods, can't find ball, drop where it entered woods, take penalty stroke, continue. 

I would prefer it to be a 2 stroke penalty, but I agree as far as the pace of play is concerned.  That's what I do when I don't want to drive back. 

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2 minutes ago, dsc123 said:

I would prefer it to be a 2 stroke penalty, but I agree as far as the pace of play is concerned.  That's what I do when I don't want to drive back. 

The problem with making a two stroke penalty is there is now more incentive to prolong the search. One stroke is the same as "punching out" without all of the time invested to do so. I suppose you could argue it is less of a penalty than actually having to risk punching out, but no less penal than a water hazard. Meh. 

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