Lexi Thompson's 4 Stroke Penalty at the ANA

[Braivo]

13 hours ago, iacas said:

Again with blaming the guy or gal who may be one of the most upstanding people you'd ever meet.

You have no idea who emailed. Yet everyone attributes it to a person they'll then describe in unflattering terms.

This what the emailer would say. 

[Yukari]

3 hours ago, Hatchman said:

What happened?  

He called in Tiger's drop during the Masters. 

[RH31]

34 minutes ago, 14ledo81 said:

Am I the only one that does not consider it a "black eye" for the sport?  On the contrary, I find it admirable that, when faced with a hard decision, they made the right one.  If they would have let it slide, and that would have been found out, it would have been way worse.

I get that it sucks that it went down this way, but I put the blame on Lexi.  If she had not moved her ball 3/4'', none of this would have happened.

Again my question to those upset about the viewer calling in.  If the rules official had seen it himself on a replay and noticed it would you have been fine?  If the rules official had overheard someone talking about it and looked it over again, would that have been fine?  If the rules official's wife had mentioned it to him, and he looked it over again, would that have been fine?  Where do you draw the line?

The way I see it, once the rules officials had the information (regardless of where it came from), they absolutely had to act on it.

I'm against information from outside the scope(home viewers) of the tournament influencing scoring/penalties in any way ...

I don't see how subjecting players to random microscopic analysis from Joey Cheeto has any positive influence on the game at all. It's not a penalty if players don't see it or call it and that's supposed to be fine. Right? But if slowed down, and replayed over and over, now magnified, ah yes now we have It. That's good???

 The timing of the when the tour is notified can be manipulated. A caller could wait days to notify of an infraction and affect numerous players with their lack of timeliness. IMO, just saying golf is unfair is a copout. Some bonehead sitting at home who deliberately waits to call just to create a clusterfrack is a mess just waiting to happen.

IF call ins are allowed they need to be addressed before the start of the following round or not at all.

That's where I'd draw the line(s).

 

41 minutes ago, krupa said:

Agreed.  It would have been much worse had they reviewed things and decided "it's not that bad" and let it go.  Rules and penalties have to be applied objectively to ensure they are applied fairly. 

All they had to say was the video in inconclusive, like they do in other sports. I'd bet there isn't a player in that field that would challenge and call for a penalty.

[krupa]

3 minutes ago, RH31 said:

I'm against information from outside the scope(home viewers) of the tournament influencing scoring/penalties in any way ...

I don't see how subjecting players to random microscopic analysis from Joey Cheeto has any positive influence on the game at all. It's not a penalty if players don't see it or call it and that's supposed to be fine. Right? But if slowed down, and replayed over and over, now magnified, ah yes now we have It. That's good???

 The timing of the when the tour is notified can be manipulated. A caller could wait days to notify of an infraction and affect numerous players with their lack of timeliness. IMO, just saying golf is unfair is a copout. Some bonehead sitting at home who deliberately waits to call just to create a clusterfrack is a mess just waiting to happen.

IF call ins are allowed they need to be addressed before the start of the following round or not at all.

That's where I'd draw the line(s).

 

After reaching 300+ posts beating this topic to death, bringing it back to life with the necronomicon, then beating it to death again, I'd say we're all "Joey Cheetos" at this point.

FWIW, I agree that they shouldn't take outside calls/emails about rules infractions.

If they don't take outside calls, they need rules officials  with each group.  That won't catch everything, however, and home viewers and analysts will still find rules violations that could affect the outcome of a tournament.  

Regardless of how they become aware of a rules infraction, once they are aware of it, they have to act objectively. 

[Hatchman]

13 minutes ago, Yukari said:

He called in Tiger's drop during the Masters. 

Oh, ok thanks. I see.

[krupa]

10 minutes ago, RH31 said:

All they had to say was the video in inconclusive, like they do in other sports. I'd bet there isn't a player in that field that would challenge and call for a penalty.

Was it, though?  I thought it was pretty clear that she put the ball down in a different spot.

[RH31]

12 minutes ago, krupa said:

Was it, though?  I thought it was pretty clear that she put the ball down in a different spot.

It doesn't matter what we think. We weren't playing in the tournament.

The players competing for the honors and money and livelihood wouldn't have cared.

 

[krupa]

1 minute ago, RH31 said:

It doesn't matter what we think. We weren't playing in the tournament.

The players competing for the honors and money and livelihood wouldn't have cared.

 

It doesn't matter what the players think either.  The tournament directors don't gather the players in a room and vote on who gets penalties and who doesn't.

But that's besides the point, you said...

31 minutes ago, RH31 said:

All they had to say was the video in inconclusive, like they do in other sports. I'd bet there isn't a player in that field that would challenge and call for a penalty.

and I said that the video looks conclusive to me.  So the rules officials could say "hey it's inconclusive" and we'd still be at 365 posts arguing about them missing the call.  Because we're all Joey Cheeto.

[GolfLug]

BTW, Insta is lit up too. Cheetos is getting a lot of free publicity (courtesy of email from the 'guy eating Cheetos on his couch')..

[iacas]

7 hours ago, zero said:

This is where you lose me. If it's carelessness and you can't prove intent, then she did not sign an incorrect scorecard and should have only been penalized 2 strokes.

The scorecard was incorrect when she wrote down her score without including the penalty strokes she incurred. She incurred the penalty strokes the instant she played from the wrong place.

Please read that. It's been written in many forms already. Her scorecard was wrong when she signed it.

7 hours ago, zero said:

The scorecard was correct by everyone's standards at the time she signed it. Then, the next day, it was changed. She didn't sign it the next day... she signed it when it was correct. 

It was not. See above.

If you think the scorecard was correct when she signed it, then you must also think she doesn't deserve a penalty for playing from the wrong place.

1 hour ago, RH31 said:

I agree with your sentiment, but it won't work. A simple video review of what Lexi did may not have turned up anything.

I can see the movement of the ball from one place to another in real-time speed without magnification.

1 hour ago, RH31 said:

We all have our opinions about what went on and how it was handled. I don't know how anybody could think that this situation is good for the game though. Just another black eye for an already struggling sport/game.

Golf's "struggles" are over-rated. And like someone else said, it may not be as black an eye as many are making it out to be.

If Lexi had handled things better, perhaps it could have even been seen as a good thing.

1 hour ago, krupa said:

Agreed.  It would have been much worse had they reviewed things and decided "it's not that bad" and let it go.  Rules and penalties have to be applied objectively to ensure they are applied fairly. 

Yep. That would have been worse.

47 minutes ago, chilepepper said:

No need for rules officials on the course anymore. Tournament organizers can just have viewers phone it the votes on infractions, real or perceived, kind of like voting on dancing with the stars. 

ROs are still needed… to do what they do now: assist the players with questions, offer information, etc.

43 minutes ago, Braivo said:

This what the emailer would say. 

Wasn't me (this time). I was at Ron Jaworski's course.  You know because his name is everywhere…

37 minutes ago, RH31 said:

I'm against information from outside the scope(home viewers) of the tournament influencing scoring/penalties in any way ...

So another way of looking at this is… you're against the truth.

Because seriously, imagine that Lexi wins by two, or one, or anything under 5… imagine the shit show that would ensue when the video surfaced and people realize she should have been penalized two to four strokes. She'd have a tainted victory.

Here's one I'd never said before: Imagine if the PGA rules officials didn't notice that Dustin Johnson was in a bunker but the video surfaced after he'd won a playoff for the PGA Championship? How would that look? On Dustin? On the PGA? On golf in general?

37 minutes ago, RH31 said:

I don't see how subjecting players to random microscopic analysis from Joey Cheeto has any positive influence on the game at all.

It's closer to the truth of what actually happened.

If a player incurs a penalty and nobody notices… the player still incurred the penalty. There may be times when they get away with it for a time, but eventually if someone does and it's before the competition closes… or even if they didn't and the player gets away with it, the fact is that the player incurred the penalty.

37 minutes ago, RH31 said:

It's not a penalty if players don't see it or call it and that's supposed to be fine. Right?

It's still a breach of the rules.

If a player foot wedges his ball and nobody sees it, it's still a breach of the rules. If a player drops a ball out of his pocket and nobody sees it, it's still a breach. If a player brushes away loose impediments in a bunker during his backswing and doesn't notice, it's still a breach…

37 minutes ago, RH31 said:

The timing of the when the tour is notified can be manipulated. A caller could wait days to notify of an infraction and affect numerous players with their lack of timeliness. IMO, just saying golf is unfair is a copout. Some bonehead sitting at home who deliberately waits to call just to create a clusterfrack is a mess just waiting to happen.

It's still getting closer to the truth, and again, you're shifting the blame from the person who deserves it - Lexi Thompson - to the person who noticed and called it in, all without knowing.

I recorded all four rounds of the LPGA event and was likely going to watch the Saturday/Sunday rounds when I got back home after a weekend away. If I had seen something there would not have been any "waiting" - it's when I would have seen it.

Again, I'm glad the person saw it during the tournament before it closed, because the alternative seems likely to be much, much worse.

37 minutes ago, RH31 said:

IF call ins are allowed they need to be addressed before the start of the following round or not at all.

No, I don't agree. Call-ins get the tournament closer to the truth. Lexi Thompson is to blame here, not the caller.

This all would have been avoided if she could have put her ball down in roughly the same spot as where she lifted it from half a second earlier.

37 minutes ago, RH31 said:

All they had to say was the video in inconclusive, like they do in other sports. I'd bet there isn't a player in that field that would challenge and call for a penalty.

It wasn't inconclusive. They'd be lying, and a cover-up or a lie is even worse than video first surfacing after the close of the competition.

10 minutes ago, RH31 said:

It doesn't matter what we think. We weren't playing in the tournament.

The players competing for the honors and money and livelihood wouldn't have cared.

I know for a fact that some cared. In golf, everyone cares about the results of your next shot, and 95%+ of them are hoping it's bad (i.e. benefits them).

5 minutes ago, krupa said:

It doesn't matter what the players think either.  The tournament directors don't gather the players in a room and vote on who gets penalties and who doesn't.

Right. The rules are blind to that (or should be ideally).

5 minutes ago, krupa said:

and I said that the video looks conclusive to me.

The video looks conclusive to me, too, in real speed at full view.

It looks a lot like the Chella Choi video, IMO. I think Chella moved it a little more than Lexi, but it was obvious to me in both cases that the ball wasn't put back in the same region.

[gregsandiego]

8 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

BTW, Insta is lit up too. Cheetos is getting a lot of free publicity (courtesy of email from the 'guy eating Cheetos on his couch')..

Where did the "cheetos" come from?

Some of the pros on the golf channel were wondering how this cheeto guy even had an email since even they had no idea what that email would be.

Also let's assume Lexi is guilty as charged. So I'm a pro paid by LPGA to officiate, but I take/need advice from the public? Maybe I'm not the most qualified for the job.

[David in FL]

8 hours ago, bpburner said:

A) "She knew..." that's exactly why she said you're kidding me"  What competitive edge did she gain on a sub 2' putt? 

B) I agree she knows the rule,,, when was the last time you were a 1/2" - 1" off in your placement or better yet when was that last time you drove +2 over the speed limit hell in this comparison when was the last time you drove .25mph over the speed limit. 

C) Evidently other sport references aren't ever relevant in this topic so sorry doesn't qualify

a)  There doesn't need to be a competitive advantage to be in breach of a rule.  She knows that too.  I expect (hope) that you do too.

b)  Completely irrelevant, but I speed more than I should.  I know when I do it.  If I get caught, I won't whine about any consequence.  

c)  Yep.  But I thought I would answer your (irrelevant) question nonetheless.

 

[GolfLug]

7 hours ago, Shooting29 said:

I've kept up with this thread all day. Read all 20 pages, I can safely say there are two camps and both are represented by this gif

I agree.. Not like anybody on either side changing minds on the other side..

 

 

[David in FL]

1 minute ago, GolfLug said:

I agree.. Not like anybody on either side changing minds on the other side..

True.  Which is a little disturbing.  

It's not like a political debate where people are arguing from a perspective of differing core values.  This is a relatively (very) simple rule.  Granted, the result and subsequent consequence of the ruling was somewhat unusual, but the rules, and ruling itself was not.

 

[Braivo]

Just now, David in FL said:

True.  Which is a little disturbing.  

It's not like a political debate where people are arguing from a perspective of differing core values.  This is a relatively (very) simple rule.  Granted, the result and subsequent consequence of the ruling was somewhat unusual, but the rules, and ruling itself was not.

 

Some are arguing it should have been handled differently, others think it was just fine as is, and others (like me) are arguing that it was handled properly but the rules should be changed. 

[jsgolfer]

I've largely stayed out of this topic and didn't look at the video until just now.  I've been against having the public be able to call in rules infractions, as it doesn't apply to everyone equally, but I think I've changed my mind on that.  

After watching the video many, many times, Lexi definitely does not put it back in the same spot, it's really not even close.  You can see quite a big space between where the ball is and her right foot and when she puts it back, that space is almost gone.  Now at first when I heard of this, I thought that if you mark it from behind and then remark from the side, you could have a little variablility of where it was placed, as you are putting the coin directly behind the ball looking at the hole.  But if you remark from the side, it's possible it will be a little off, but that's not what she did.  I don't think she was trying to cheat per se, but she was trying to manipulate the remark to her advantage, otherwise she wouldn't have done it.   

So it was a penalty, at least IMO, and whether it was a competitor, a viewer or a rules official who saw it, doesn't matter, it was a penalty and was called correctly.  

Maybe they should have a rules official watching the broadcast and then they don't need Joey Cheeto to be the one to see the infraction and call it in.

[jamo]

10 hours ago, cutchemist42 said:

i know the placement was absurd but honestly asking, how much deviation is allowed? I mean every marked ball that is replaced is never the same as before despite our best effort.

I always have this thought when the argument about golf balls oscillating comes up.

[Bballref]

Sometimes the rules seem a bit hypocritical. Remember when Hadwin & Cantlay were coming down the stretch at Valspar and Cantlay's tee shot landed in the moderate rough on I think the 15th. Anyways the ball came to rest near what looked like a sprinkler head cover but it affected Cantlay's stance so that he was allowed by rule to move the ball two club lengths onto the fairway. He went on to make birdie and whether being on the fairway instead of in the rough helped we'll never know. Probably nothing in this but I just find it strange that one rule gives an advantage and the other takes it away.