Lexi Thompson's 4 Stroke Penalty at the ANA

[14ledo81]

Maybe they should lie and always just say a rules official saw it.  I guess that wouldn't really be a lie because the rules official has to see it before making a ruling anyway.

Wouldn't make a difference to me, but apparently that would to some.  Also, poor Joey Cheeto wouldn't get such a bad rap......

[iacas]

38 minutes ago, gregsandiego said:

Also let's assume Lexi is guilty as charged. So I'm a pro paid by LPGA to officiate, but I take/need advice from the public? Maybe I'm not the most qualified for the job.

Oh brother… Rules Officials are not tasked with watching EVERY action by EVERY player. Their job is to help players, not watch them all like hawks.

13 minutes ago, Braivo said:

Some are arguing it should have been handled differently, others think it was just fine as is, and others (like me) are arguing that it was handled properly but the rules should be changed. 

Why should the rules be changed? Because a popular American player didn't know the rules?

Until the tournament is over, players are responsible for their actions in that tournament. The tournament is a 72-hole competition, not a separate series of 18-hole competitions (the FedExCup is a series of 40-ish 72-hole competitions, for example).

If you want to cut the time off at the end of the day, imagine if Rory Sabbatini or Rory McIlroy committed a breach late on a Thursday and it's discovered Saturday morning. What's the golfer to do? Play on? WD? Commit a penalty to call it on themselves to set the universe right again?

People were asking for Tiger to WD himself in the 2013 Masters. He chose to play on. Brandel Chamblee ripped him to shreds for that, IIRC.

2 minutes ago, Bballref said:

Sometimes the rules seem a bit hypocritical. Remember when Hadwin & Cantlay were coming down the stretch at Valspar and Cantlay's tee shot landed in the moderate rough on I think the 15th. Anyways the ball came to rest near what looked like a sprinkler head cover but it affected Cantlay's stance so that he was allowed by rule to move the ball two club lengths onto the fairway. He went on to make birdie and whether being on the fairway instead of in the rough helped we'll never know. Probably nothing in this but I just find it strange that one rule gives an advantage and the other takes it away.

There's nothing wrong with that. The rough, the fairway… it's all "through the green." The Rules of Golf can help you quite often, too. There's nothing hypocritical there.

[Braivo]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

Until the tournament is over, players are responsible for their actions in that tournament. The tournament is a 72-hole competition, not a separate series of 18-hole competitions (the FedExCup is a series of 40-ish 72-hole competitions, for example).

Then why not just keep a 72-hole scorecard that isn't final and signed until Sunday afternoon? 

[David in FL]

11 minutes ago, Bballref said:

Sometimes the rules seem a bit hypocritical. Remember when Hadwin & Cantlay were coming down the stretch at Valspar and Cantlay's tee shot landed in the moderate rough on I think the 15th. Anyways the ball came to rest near what looked like a sprinkler head cover but it affected Cantlay's stance so that he was allowed by rule to move the ball two club lengths onto the fairway. He went on to make birdie and whether being on the fairway instead of in the rough helped we'll never know. Probably nothing in this but I just find it strange that one rule gives an advantage and the other takes it away.

It's a common misperception that the rules exist in order to "punish".  The aren't there either to hurt the player or to help him.  The simply tell us how to play the game.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Braivo said:

Then why not just keep a 72-hole scorecard that isn't final and signed until Sunday afternoon? 

Because that's adding a complication to something that doesn't need it.

You play with different players (and thus have different markers) on different days. Some of them may have gone home. Or may be playing on a different course.

You attest to each stipulated round, but your score is subject to correction for the duration of the competition.

[roamin]

15 minutes ago, Bballref said:

Sometimes the rules seem a bit hypocritical. Remember when Hadwin & Cantlay were coming down the stretch at Valspar and Cantlay's tee shot landed in the moderate rough on I think the 15th. Anyways the ball came to rest near what looked like a sprinkler head cover but it affected Cantlay's stance so that he was allowed by rule to move the ball two club lengths onto the fairway. He went on to make birdie and whether being on the fairway instead of in the rough helped we'll never know. Probably nothing in this but I just find it strange that one rule gives an advantage and the other takes it away.

I think the difference here is Lexi moved the ball sans-sprinkler head. 

[drmevo]

19 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

I've largely stayed out of this topic and didn't look at the video until just now.  I've been against having the public be able to call in rules infractions, as it doesn't apply to everyone equally, but I think I've changed my mind on that.  

After watching the video many, many times, Lexi definitely does not put it back in the same spot, it's really not even close.  You can see quite a big space between where the ball is and her right foot and when she puts it back, that space is almost gone.  Now at first when I heard of this, I thought that if you mark it from behind and then remark from the side, you could have a little variablility of where it was placed, as you are putting the coin directly behind the ball looking at the hole.  But if you remark from the side, it's possible it will be a little off, but that's not what she did.  I don't think she was trying to cheat per se, but she was trying to manipulate the remark to her advantage, otherwise she wouldn't have done it.   

So it was a penalty, at least IMO, and whether it was a competitor, a viewer or a rules official who saw it, doesn't matter, it was a penalty and was called correctly.  

Maybe they should have a rules official watching the broadcast and then they don't need Joey Cheeto to be the one to see the infraction and call it in.

I went through a similar evolution. My immediate reaction was that it was BS that such a seemingly small thing could be pointed out by a viewer at home and alter the outcome of a major. When I heard all the outrage I figured it must have been very minor and I assumed that she had marked, picked up, waited for someone else to putt, then replaced in a slightly different spot.  However, she picked the ball up and immediately moved it to a different spot...whether it was a brain fart or whatever, it's very obvious and I can see how they couldn't let that slide. 

[DaveP043]

22 minutes ago, Bballref said:

Sometimes the rules seem a bit hypocritical. Remember when Hadwin & Cantlay were coming down the stretch at Valspar and Cantlay's tee shot landed in the moderate rough on I think the 15th. Anyways the ball came to rest near what looked like a sprinkler head cover but it affected Cantlay's stance so that he was allowed by rule to move the ball two club lengths onto the fairway. He went on to make birdie and whether being on the fairway instead of in the rough helped we'll never know. Probably nothing in this but I just find it strange that one rule gives an advantage and the other takes it away.

I'd say this is comparing apples and oranges, two different aspects of the same principle..  One of the most important principles in golf is that you play the ball as it lies.  That means that when you lift it (within the rules), you replace it on that same spot.  Lexi didn't do that.  That principle of golf is modified a bit, with the idea that a player shouldn't be influenced by artificial stuff, like sprinkler heads.  Consequently, the rules allow relief from that artificial stuff.  (Artificial stuff is a technical term  )

10 minutes ago, Braivo said:

Then why not just keep a 72-hole scorecard that isn't final and signed until Sunday afternoon? 

Because the rules specifically allow a few things to happen between stipulated rounds.  For instance, you can't substitute a club during a round (with very limited exceptions), but you CAN start a round with completely different clubs than the ones you used the preceding round.  For instance, practice.

Edited April 4, 2017 by DaveP043

[krupa]

5 minutes ago, David in FL said:

It's a common misperception that the rules exist in order to "punish".  The aren't there either to hurt the player or to help him.  The simply tell us how to play the game.

I like this description of a game, from wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game):

Quote

"A game is an activity among two or more independent decision-makers seeking to achieve their objectives in some limiting context."

I like the phrase, "limiting context".  

[phillyk]

Golf is a game of honor. Take this scenario, no penalty was given she goes on to win.  Lexi then finds out she had breached a rule potentially being given a 4 stroke penalty or DQ but no one can prove it except for her but everyone still sees it on TV the next day.  I'm pretty sure she would hand over the win.  It's called integrity, even if it was an accident.  You win within the framework of the rules, no trying to skirt around rules you don't like.  

And really, how many times has a person called in a rules violation in the last 10 yrs?  It doesn't happen, because most players are honest about their mistakes but sometimes they make an accident they don't realize broke a rule.

4 minutes ago, Braivo said:

Then why not just keep a 72-hole scorecard that isn't final and signed until Sunday afternoon? 

It was mentioned earlier.  You play with different partners in the 3rd and 4th rounds, and the scorecards are kept by the competitor.  It simply wouldn't work unless you made everyone play all 4 rounds with the same people with no cut.

[Bballref]

Why not have a ball marker with a "place ball here" indicator arrow on it? Pettersen was using a tee which when pushed into the green on an angle (like a pointer) tells her exactly where to place the ball. Don't know if she always uses a tee or if she got wind of Thompson's predicament the day before and decided to not take chances.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, phillyk said:

And really, how many times has a person called in a rules violation in the last 10 yrs?  It doesn't happen, because most players are honest about their mistakes but sometimes they make an accident they don't realize broke a rule.

It's also not a new occurrence: Bobby Locke in 1957 was 60 years ago. Craig Stadler was 30 years ago.

[gregsandiego]

At least Lexi did the golf world an inadvertent favor by creating something to talk about. Her little move probably got a lot of attention.

[DaveP043]

5 minutes ago, Bballref said:

Why not have a ball marker with a "place ball here" indicator arrow on it? Pettersen was using a tee which when pushed into the green on an angle (like a pointer) tells her exactly where to place the ball. Don't know if she always uses a tee or if she got wind of Thompson's predicament the day before and decided to not take chances.

 

Edited April 4, 2017 by DaveP043

[1badbadger]

2 minutes ago, David in FL said:

It's a common misperception that the rules exist in order to "punish".  The aren't there either to hurt the player or to help him.  The simply tell us how to play the game.

I agree with the statement that the rules don't exist to punish players, but I've always believed that players who know the rules can use them to their advantage.  Maybe that isn't the same as "helping" them, maybe it is, I don't know.  But when Tiger had that boulder moved, that was using the rules to his advantage.  

The Solheim Cup incident in 2000 when Annika Sorenstam chipped in for birdie against Kelly Robbins and Pat Hurst, but had played out-of-turn. They made her re-play the shot, and the Americans won the hole. They were accused of unsportsmanlike conduct, but I thought it was a great example of them using the rules to their advantage.  It's similar to this incident...Annika broke the rule, but was considered the victim, and the Americans were the bad guys. 

[gregsandiego]

2 minutes ago, Bballref said:

Why not have a ball marker with a "place ball here" indicator arrow on it? Pettersen was using a tee which when pushed into the green on an angle (like a pointer) tells her exactly where to place the ball. Don't know if she always uses a tee or if she got wind of Thompson's predicament the day before and decided to not take chances.

Have you ever played with someone that wants the marker out of the way and uses a club on the ground to offset it? 

BTW do these markers interfere with the roll if they are hit?

[roamin]

1 minute ago, Bballref said:

Why not have a ball marker with a "place ball here" indicator arrow on it?

Absolutely possible. Heck, DIY with a sharpie if you need to so you don't ****-up and cost yourself a major. 

[1badbadger]

1 minute ago, gregsandiego said:

Have you ever played with someone that wants the marker out of the way and uses a club on the ground to offset it? 

BTW do these markers interfere with the roll if they are hit?

Yes, if a ball hits a ball marker it can kick it off line.