Alex White of BYU Plays Sunday's Round Thursday

[iacas]

http://golfweek.com/2017/05/18/for-2nd-straight-year-ncaa-womens-championship-to-begin-on-thursday/

I heard about this in the telecast and had to play it back again to make sure I had heard it correctly.

The NCAA accommodated BYU (or any other school which has a policy of not competing on a particular day of the week for religious reasons). This year, that amounted to letting Alex White play her "Sunday" round on Thursday. Normally the four rounds are competed on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and Monday. Saturday's round was canceled due to the bad weather.

The weather conditions were crazy different Thursday vs. Sunday. On Thursday, conditions were calmer, warmer, and completely dry. On Sunday, conditions were super wet, windy, and quite cold. Yet because on Thursday Alex Smith played the ball down (no lift, clean, and place), the entire field had to play the ball down on Sunday.

I get the idea of being accommodating. I'm not saying this is a slippery slope, and that eventually someone's going to say "I can't compete [insert some odd claim here] because of religious reasons."

But it still strikes me as a little odd. What if she had won? When they aired a brief segment about this, the woman was T8. Is there a better way to handle this sort of thing? (Note: if the "solution" had been for her to play twice on Saturday, then they could claim that's unfair as it's 36 holes in one day… plus Saturday's play was washed out and canceled. At least the current solution has her playing in the "final round" under some pressure.)

That said, I can also see the case for saying "look, we're having a competition. If you want to be a part of it, you'll play Sunday. We'd rather be unfair to one person than to 120+ others by letting you compete on a different day, with better weather and no fellow competitors playing with you, etc." I'm not sure that's the side I come down on, even, but I could see that being a perfectly legitimate side, too.

What do y'all think? (I put this in Rules for now, but could move it… I'm not sure what shape the discussion will take.)

[lastings]

pretty tricky subject.   

My first instinct is "absolutely not."  but, the more I think about it, I'm not sure how it disadvantages other players.   if she's out of contention, it doesn't matter at all.  And if she is the leader, It lets everyone know where the bar is at before the round even starts.   So, that said, I think it disadvantages her more than any other.   

now, if she got to play her Sunday round after everyone, that would be a different story.  

 

[iacas]

27 minutes ago, lastings said:

My first instinct is "absolutely not."  but, the more I think about it, I'm not sure how it disadvantages other players.   if she's out of contention, it doesn't matter at all.  And if she is the leader, It lets everyone know where the bar is at before the round even starts.   So, that said, I think it disadvantages her more than any other.

That assumes the weather and conditions are otherwise the same.

She got a huge advantage: she played in really good weather, while everyone else had to play in really crappy weather.

They probably would have played LCP on Sunday, but because the round was "begun" under the conditions they determined on Thursday, they couldn't change it.

[Golfingdad]

Interesting topic.  I've known about BYU's Sunday rules for a long time, but I always only knew about situations where the ramifications were very little.  Weekend baseball series' would be Thurs-Sat instead of Fri-Sun, or if they qualify for the NCAA baseketball tournament, it means their regional options are only 2, instead of 4.  In neither of those cases, though, is anything on the field affected.

In an event like this where it could actually affect the competition itself, I'd have assumed that they would not be accommodating.  I'd have figured they'd have gone with the last option ...

38 minutes ago, iacas said:

"look, we're having a competition. If you want to be a part of it, you'll play Sunday.

Knowing that BYU has had this rule forever, I'd even lean towards being extra accommodating, and just not scheduling big NCAA events like this across a Sunday if it could be helped.  Or if they extended the opportunity to the entire field.  Give them all the option to play round 3 on Thursday.  Of course, I realize the logistics of this might be pretty crazy, so instead I'll go with this:

I think that saying to a person who's about to choose BYU as their school "look, because of our rules, there may be some unavoidable situations where you might have to skip or forfeit a competition if it falls on a Sunday" is better for all involved than if, say, a BYU player gets perfect weather conditions on Thursday and ends up winning a title because the weather on Sunday is awful.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Golfingdad

[David in FL]

No.  I don't know that it's necessarily unfair, for example, the weather issue can cut both ways.  It's certainly not equitable though, in that all competitors are not being treated in the same manner.

Just out of curiosity, I wonder how many former BYU athletes are now playing various professional sports on Sundays.  Does BYU accept endowments from those that have been successful doing so?

It's funny how pragmatism can often trump ideology.  

[onthehunt526]

I get the BYU stance on not playing on Sunday. But Alex White playing Thursday for Sunday under different conditions, that's a little off, IMO. If the NCAA wants to be "accommodating" but "fair", the championship should be Wednesday to Saturday. But it won't happen.

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

I get the BYU stance on not playing on Sunday. But Alex White playing Thursday for Sunday under different conditions, that's a little off, IMO. If the NCAA wants to be "accommodating" but "fair", the championship should be Wednesday to Saturday. But it won't happen.

As you know, there are practical reasons why not to have it Weds-Sat. There are match play rounds after this, too. And practice rounds before that. And they wanted to get this stuff on TV without competing against the PGA Tour, Champions Tour, and LPGA Tour.

So… yeah. Changing the dates really doesn't do much because eventually one of them is gonna be on a Sunday. If you made it the final practice round day, then the stroke play would be Mon-Thu, and the match play would finish on, what, Saturday when it couldn't get on the TV?

[onthehunt526]

I understand the logistics with a Wed-Sat stroke play not working out. And with TV being an issue, I get that. Someone in a previous comment suggested that players should have the option of starting the third round on Thursday. 

It seems to me, it's not deliberately "unfair" but it is not "equitable". They should figure out something to make it more "equitable" for everyone. This needs to be revisited. That's my two cents.

[iacas]

Yeah, I was more talking to others, @onthehunt526, who may not consider the reasons why the NCAA is quite unlikely to change the actual days. They benefit a TON from getting the TV coverage they've gotten the past few years. And it's great to watch.

[Fourputt]

In my opinion, this goes against equity.  It does not treat all players the same.  The only way that this should fly is if the entire field plays on a day other than Sunday when the condition is encountered.  Making such an exception for one player at the potential expense of the rest of the field is simply beyond reasonable. 

To be honest, I don't even like that solution either, but that's my own issue.  I have never felt that special accommodations should be made for one person because of such beliefs.  If one wishes to compete in a given activity, then one should expect to have to respect the schedule set up for that activity.  If one's beliefs are so closely held that he/she cannot accede to those requirements, then one needs to choose a different activity.

[Golfingdad]

15 minutes ago, David in FL said:

It's funny how pragmatism can often trump ideology.  

I wondered the same thing, but more in regards to their recruiting.  I would hope that if they were really strict with the religious rules, then they'd only have Mormons attending.  (A quick google search turned up that Jim McMahon was raised as a Catholic.)

It seems a little disingenuous to gain an advantage, or say, an inequity, (however slight) to be applied towards players who might not even believe in what was allowing them that inequity.

24 minutes ago, David in FL said:

Just out of curiosity, I wonder how many former BYU athletes are now playing various professional sports on Sundays.  Does BYU accept endowments from those that have been successful doing so?

Don't know.  During my search, I did find one story about a football player that was drafted and actually declined the invitation to camp because of his beliefs.

26 minutes ago, David in FL said:

No.  I don't know that it's necessarily unfair, for example, the weather issue can cut both ways.  It's certainly not equitable though, in that all competitors are not being treated in the same manner.

This is what I was thinking when I suggested that perhaps it would be OK (though, likely not practical) for them to offer to the entire field to play Thursday instead of Sunday.

(By the way, sorry about responding in completely backwards order to your points - I kept thinking of new things as I was writing. )

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

They benefit a TON from getting the TV coverage they've gotten the past few years. And it's great to watch.

Agree wholeheartedly, especially the last sentence!

[boogielicious]

56 minutes ago, David in FL said:

No.  I don't know that it's necessarily unfair, for example, the weather issue can cut both ways.  It's certainly not equitable though, in that all competitors are not being treated in the same manner.

Just out of curiosity, I wonder how many former BYU athletes are now playing various professional sports on Sundays.  Does BYU accept endowments from those that have been successful doing so?

It's funny how pragmatism can often trump ideology.  

Let's ask Steve Young!

I said no. If you can't play the sport when it's scheduled, pick another sport. 

[drmevo]

I mean, if we're trying to look at this logically, there's absolutely no question.  There's no logical reason to not play on Sundays. Letting one (small) group's belief in the supernatural possibly affect the outcome of a major collegiate sporting event is not logical. 

[saevel25]

She has a responsibility to her religion, not the NCAA. I think the NCAA went well beyond what is right here. It's her choice to either strictly adhere to her religious beliefs or play in the tournament. It's not right to give one person preferential treatment. 

[Hardspoon]

I voted "no".  I really do appreciate the intent of this; I think it's a good idea for amateur sports to be as inclusive as possible.  However - for better or worse - college sports are big business, and they need to operate in a way that protects the competition.  If this were high school, I'd think it was great...try to be as accommodating as possible to include as many kids as you could.  But at the NCAA level, I just don't think this works.

This article, from 2016, had an interesting take:

http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2016/7/25/12261532/byu-no-sunday-rule-big-12

Quote

There are two reasons for the Big 12 to work with BYU here.

One is as straightforward as dollars and cents.

If the Big 12 decides BYU will make the conference stronger in more sports than football, the league would benefit from making it as easy as possible for BYU teams to fit in. That would mean better competition, better exposure and more money.

The other reason is more altruistic.

BYU is a school for a religious minority. Its student-athletes happen to be really good at several sports. For the Big 12 to embrace those players as competitors while respecting a long-held Mormon norm would be an example of open-mindedness that college sports could use.

I have a fairly negative view of the NCAA and its conferences, so I'm not sure that reason #2 even came into the picture.  So, basically, the inherent inequity in accommodating them for golf was a necessary evil, in order for the NCAA to make money from BYU fans.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Hardspoon

[Papa Steve 55]

I don't feel she have been allowed to do that. She picked the school knowing the rules. I assume she has no aspiration's for the LPGA, or plans on abandoning her beliefs. 

[Hardspoon]

9 minutes ago, Papa Steve 55 said:

She picked the school knowing the rules. 

This NCAA policy has existed since 1963 (with a short hiatus in the 1990's).

[iacas]

41 minutes ago, Papa Steve 55 said:

I don't feel she have been allowed to do that. She picked the school knowing the rules. I assume she has no aspiration's for the LPGA, or plans on abandoning her beliefs. 

Johnny Miller is a famous Mormon. He's been asked about this whole "Sundays" thing several times.

It's not just Mormons, either. AFAIK almost any religion can claim this type of thing… depending on how strictly they interpret their holy book. I think (I'm definitely NOT a religion expert, so correct me if I'm wrong and it's relevant to the discussion).