Ernest Jones video

[Vinsk]

9 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

It's obvious what happens in a good swing.  Not up for debate.

Like the trail leg losing flex?

[Jack Watson]

I found this from Nicklaus.  I don't pay Flicks comments much attention,  but read what Nicklaus said.

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/flick-nicklaus-transition

"You swing the club and the body reacts to how you swing it.  "

Edited June 22, 2017 by Jack Watson

[DaveP043]

16 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

I found this from Nicklaus.  I don't pay Flicks comments much attention,  but read what Nicklaus said.

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/flick-nicklaus-transition

"You swing the club and the body reacts to how you swing it.  "

I have two issues with this.  First, you accept one part of this article, and ignore the other part, apparently because what Jack says seems to reinforce your point.  

Second, you can't "swing the club" separately from moving your body.  The body movements, from toes to shoulders to fingertips, determine the club movements.  The club provides nothing on its own.  While that's what Jack may have felt he was doing, in reality its not.

[GolfLug]

I read/watched some of the OP and last couple of pages.

The one liners like 'club moves the body' or 'swing it like a feather' or what have you are not helpful feelings by themselves to be effective in entirety. I guess they are ok and can somewhat reduce negative effects of not swinging on plane, etc. but these are not substitutes for not doing so at all.   

The body still has to consciously put itself and the club in positions. And you HAVE to learn to map your positions - club and body. And yes, the margin of error is ridiculously small and supposedly associated 'feels' misguide you all the time.

So yeah, if you hit your positions you can 'paint the cover off the ball' all day long.

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

I found this from Nicklaus.  I don't pay Flicks comments much attention,  but read what Nicklaus said.

Again @Jack Watson, it doesn't  matter what Jack said, or Hogan, or Jones. What matters is what they did. Everyone has a different feel to produce a certain movement or position. When a golfer, HOF or hack,  describes what they feel it may or may not provide any benefit for another. 

[Jack Watson]

5 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Second, you can't "swing the club" separately from moving your body.  The body movements, from toes to shoulders to fingertips, determine the club movements.  The club provides nothing on its own.  While that's what Jack may have felt he was doing, in reality its not.

The club on its own standing still does nothing to the golfer.  However when swung at speed it's a different story.  

5 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

you accept one part of this article, and ignore the other part, apparently because what Jack says seems to reinforce your point

I just figured Flicks point written there was irrelevant/uninteresting.

 

 

[DaveP043]

3 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

The club on its own standing still does nothing to the golfer.  However when swung at speed it's a different story.  

You cherry-picked one phrase, about the body reacting to the club.  Yet both Jack and Flick talked specifically about intentionally initiating the forward swing using the lower body.  And the only way to get the club to the desired speed is by using the body, not by letting the club do something on its own.  Jack's body isn't reacting to anything, its CAUSING the motion of the club.  

[billchao]

4 hours ago, Vinsk said:

Again @Jack Watson, it doesn't  matter what Jack said, or Hogan, or Jones. What matters is what they did. Everyone has a different feel to produce a certain movement or position. When a golfer, HOF or hack,  describes what they feel it may or may not provide any benefit for another. 

Jack also said his swing made it so that he could release the club early in the downswing and he didn't do that either.

26 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

The club on its own standing still does nothing to the golfer.  However when swung at speed it's a different story.  

And just what is swinging the club? It doesn't magically animate in your hands as your body reacts to the motion.

Look @Jack Watson, I'm a hands-feel golfer. I know exactly what it feels like for your body to be "passive and reacting to the hands," but the bottom line is that's not how I actually swing the club. For me to claim my swing begins with my hands and the body just reacts would be preposterous. Feel isn't real. I have to focus on my arms and hands because I over-rotate the hips too early if I don't. That doesn't mean my hands drive my swing. It's just a mechanical cue to help me match the part of the swing I do well without thinking about with the part that I don't.

22 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

You cherry-picked one phrase, about the body reacting to the club.  Yet both Jack and Flick talked specifically about intentionally initiating the forward swing using the lower body.  And the only way to get the club to the desired speed is by using the body, not by letting the club do something on its own.  Jack's body isn't reacting to anything, its CAUSING the motion of the club.  

Cherry-picking sounds about right. Jack has written numerous times describing his downswing action as leg driven.

[Jack Watson]

34 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

e club.  Yet both Jack and Flick talked specifically about intentionally initiating the forward swing using the lower body.  And the only way to get the club to the desired speed is by using the body, not by letting the club do something on its own

Jack said:  In other words, you swing the club, and your body reacts to how you swing it. Doing this forces you to use your lower body to initiate the downswing.

Theres more than one way to interpret that imo.  Intentionally?  Maybe.  I didn't read it that way at first glance.

I can't find anywhere that Jones wrote that the club will swing itself.  He did specifically mention though at one point that he had to respond to folks mischaracterizing his idea in that way.

34 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

 Jack's body isn't reacting to anything, its CAUSING the motion of the club

Jones wrote that the whole body contributes to the speed of the clubhead.  Theres a video available that I won't put up but it's Malaska and the BBG you tube guy I dislike talking Nicklaus.  BBG guy mentioned the leg drive Nicklaus was famous for and Malaska said same as Jones.  He said that aspect is not a conscious thing for Jack because Jack told him so.  I'd link it but I don't want to give exposure to BBG.

EDIT 1977 gd article Nicklaus said his hands are subservient to his legs FACT  

He was more like Knudson wrote in his book natural golf swing.

Knudsons book did absolute nothing for me personally.  I know, a shocker.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2017 by Jack Watson

[iacas]

20 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

It's obvious what happens in a good swing.  Not up for debate.

What?!?!?!?! It's up for debate all over the place. The instructors in the game are constantly debating this stuff.

44 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

You cherry-picked one phrase, about the body reacting to the club.  Yet both Jack and Flick talked specifically about intentionally initiating the forward swing using the lower body.  And the only way to get the club to the desired speed is by using the body, not by letting the club do something on its own.  Jack's body isn't reacting to anything, its CAUSING the motion of the club.  

Bingo!

18 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Jack said:  In other words, you swing the club, and your body reacts to how you swing it. Doing this forces you to use your lower body to initiate the downswing.

When the lower body STARTS the motion, it's tough to say the lower body is doing the "reacting." How can you react to something ahead of time?

18 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

I can't find anywhere that Jones wrote that the club will swing itself.  He did specifically mention though at one point that he had to respond to folks mischaracterizing his idea in that way.

The more you post about this particular topic, the more I think Jones was a one-trick, one-tool pony. And it wasn't even a very good tool (or trick).

18 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

Jones wrote that the whole body contributes to the speed of the clubhead.  Theres a video available that I won't put up but it's Malaska and the BBG you tube guy I dislike talking Nicklaus.  BBG guy mentioned the leg drive Nicklaus was famous for and Malaska said same as Jones.  He said that aspect is not a conscious thing for Jack because Jack told him so.  I'd link it but I don't want to give exposure to BBG.

Yet… some people may need it to be a conscious thing!

[Vinsk]

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

The more you post about this particular topic, the more I think Jones was a one-trick, one-tool pony. And it wasn't even a very good tool (or trick).

I read through a website promoting the style of EJ. Two brothers I guess have a school. I immediately became suspicious when they use the ever famous terms ' Eureka, Secret, One thing to do to have a flawless swing.' Yeah, I'm not buying it. 

[Jack Watson]

I haven't researched modern takes on Jones idea.  I don't tend to like secondhand accounts of stuff very much.  I like to try if possible to go on the source.  Jones heavily emphasized the feel through the hands of the pull of the clubhead while swinging.  This came to mind when thinking of the idea of swinging a weight on a string in a circle.  Obviously different but there's some similarities to golf.

Jones wrote that this pull of the clubhead is both speed and control.  It's easy to imagine a flip,  that's the antithesis of this concept.  I can't see how the sensation Jones wanted in the hands is possible without engaging the body.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Jack Watson

[boogielicious]

10 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

I haven't researched modern takes on Jones idea.  I don't tend to like secondhand accounts of stuff very much.  I like to try if possible to go on the source.  Jones heavily emphasized the feel through the hands of the pull of the clubhead while swinging.  This came to mind when thinking of the idea of swinging a weight on a string in a circle.  Obviously different but there's some similarities to golf.

Jones wrote that this pull of the clubhead is both speed and control.  It's easy to imagine a flip,  that's the antithesis of this concept.  I can't see how the sensation Jones wanted in the hands is possible without engaging the body.

The video below is as relevant as the video you attached, which is not-relevant.

 

[DaveP043]

10 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

I haven't researched modern takes on Jones idea.  I don't tend to like secondhand accounts of stuff very much.  I like to try if possible to go on the source.  

Finally we agree completely on something.  I don't need to hear any more of your interpretations and paraphrasing of Jones, as it seems to change in every post.  If I want to understand Jones teaching, I'll go to the source.

13 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Jack said:  In other words, you swing the club, and your body reacts to how you swing it. Doing this forces you to use your lower body to initiate the downswing.

And again, I don't care what Jack says he felt  There's simply no way that his initial forward move, planting his left heel, is a reaction in any way to what his club is GOING to do in the forward swing.  Reactions FOLLOW actions, they don't precede the action.

[GolfLug]

15 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Finally we agree completely on something.  I don't need to hear any more of your interpretations and paraphrasing of Jones, as it seems to change in every post.  If I want to understand Jones teaching, I'll go to the source.

And again, I don't care what Jack says he felt  There's simply no way that his initial forward move, planting his left heel, is a reaction in any way to what his club is GOING to do in the forward swing.  Reactions FOLLOW actions, they don't precede the action.

+1. Hence the term reaction..  

[JoeB from Tennessee]

I enjoyed your thoughts on intention. I agree

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

 I don't need to hear any more of your interpretations and paraphrasing of Jones, as it seems to change in every post.  If I want to understand Jones teaching, I'll go to the source.

Bingo.

[Jack Watson]

I have to admit,  imo me trying to use Nicklaus as someone who utilized Jones method in his prime was a mistake.  Grout taught him.  With Nicklaus it's very odd.  If you look at what he's written long after his career,  many things he writes are very Jonesian.  I found multiple times where he said things like I never thought turn I swung the club and it's momentum turned me or the other quote above or talking hands focus.  The thing is if you look at his writings from say about 77 or so he did not talk about the swing this way.  No idea why that is.  I notice though that some of what he wrote after his career was over was often in conjunction with Flick.  Malaskas account of what Jack said came from retired Jack not world beating Jack.  So to be fair,  I think it's worth noting this.  My apologies for posting Jacks views from an era long removed from his tournament play.

I do think it is worth noting that Jack did look up to Bobby Jones as the man to beat in terms of records.  Bobby endorsed Ernest Jones's teachings back in the day.

Anyways,  my kid is not the most athletic type.  Not much interest in golf.  I have gotten her to come out with me a few times though.  Now,  I told her very little the first two times on the driving range.  I got her into a decent address position and asked her if she could imagine a playground swing and to do that.  I told her to swing the club back and through and the club would take care of the ball.  TBH she did ok I guess but it was clear watching her that she wasn't quite grasping the golf thing.  She'd catch one or two pretty good and then she'd start lunging on the forward move trying to make power and swing across the ball.  I tried to show her by example what swinging across the ball was and it sort of seemed to help.  Basically I watched her and complimented decent motions and said little else.  I never told her turn this or hands that or what have you.  She had a tendency to stand at address knees locked straight I did tell her to feel a slight springiness with the legs at address but that was the extent of my attempts to help.   She wasn't really getting into it the first time or two out.  

So the next time I coaxed her to go out with me it was only because other family was going also and they also had never golfed.  I was thinking what will I say to them?

My main goal was do no harm.  I studied Five Lessons quite a bit years back and I was quite sure I was not going to bog them down with grip stance hips lead swingplane-that wouldn't work.   So I went Ernest Jones.

I had never tried it before on anyone.  So I get my reluctant daughter into the backyard and showed her the club and how the weight is in the head of the club.  I showed her an image of the swing.  I told her focus your mind on the weight and swing it like the picture with your hands back and forth without stopping.  I did tell her this idea was not mine it came from a good source just like I told the others.  (In case of epic failure ha ha)

After a few seconds she goes wow that seems so much easier Dad!  Her swing looked functional.  So I did the same to the others and went to the range.

I set my daughter up first with a low tee and said just remember what I said.  I just told the others do the same thing you did on the lawn.  Obviously a lot of mishits ensued.  But the cool thing was ever few shots they'd catch one or two half decent and the reactions were priceless!  Holy crap did you see that?!  Lol.

I was focusing mostly on the two grown ups but I noticed out of the corner of my eye that my daughter was doing pretty decent!  

Now,  what happened as time went on a bit is both grown ups started a contest to see who could hit farther.  I kinda lost control of the process lol.  But they were obviously having fun.  I kept telling them to watch my daughter because she was getting successful hits the majority of the time but really

they kinda stopped listening and were having fun trying to swing as fast as possible and mishitting the majority of shots.

I watched the mechanics and all but didn't mention it.  The odd thing to me was really they were all looking decent before the two went in long drive mode.  Not one of them was not  finishing with the weight on the left.

Long story short everybody had some success and had fun.  My brother in law hit one hybrid flushed high and straight to the 200 marker.  This was before going into long drive mode haha.

The reaction that these two had was interesting.  Successful hits seemed to breed a desire for more and more power.  I let them be but it was clear that for a total beginner they need constant supervision.  Afterwards,  they told me they wanted to go again because it was fun.

I only remember being admonished when I started out as a young kid.  All I remember my grandfather telling me was no no!  That's a baseball swing!  And keep your head down!  And no no hit DOWN on the ball to make it go up!  No wonder golf seemed so difficult for me.