Is Golf More Mental or Physical?

[Phil McGleno]

@Jack Watson -This does not feel like the right topic for you to continue to push your bullshit Just Swing the Clubhead crap.

Also I voted-Golf is way more physical-Except maybe you have to be mental to stick with it for as long as many of us have!!!!

[sjduffers]

On 9/28/2017 at 8:55 PM, Lihu said:

I'm guessing that even overestimating your own ability to expect to hit a 6i 75 feet high over a tree 145 yards away to land a green some 180-ish yards away is likely not going to result in a good shot either.

Sure, you're right: I can't do that. But with the flag at 145 yds from me and having to go over a tree 75 feet high somewhere in between, I can probably do that with a 6i, as long as it launches high. Hence the visualization, because I have done before I can picture it in my mind and I can picture myself doing it (not DJ or some other player).

Again, visualization is not magically going to make you hit shots that you can't hit, physically. It can help you hit shot as are within your skills, especially if the visualization is recalling a successful prior instance of the same thing.

[Jack Watson]

@Phil McGleno

What I am alluding to is not necessarily golf specific.  But thanks for the specific and well thought out contribution. 

My take is concentration is paramount in golf during the swing.  That's mental.  Muscles cannot concentrate.

Sometimes golf for people is extremely counterintuitive.  Any average golfer can admit that changing the picture takes work.  That's changing the intent which is again mental.

Its all about what your intention is.  This gets into another point I like to talk about which is swing thoughts.  Often we lock into a swing thought or key for a period of time and play very well.  Why does that work?  People think they have found gold with some idea like bump the hip and go or lead with right elbow or point the butt of the club at the ball.  Why does it always fail over the long haul?  Obviously swings change a little over time.  

When we find that mental swing thought that's working we become very intent in the belief that doing this will make the result we want to have happen happen.

IMO Part of that effect is that since conscious energy and attention are finite things that picking a thought like that allows the parts we are not focusing on to act subconsciously.

In most cases this is much more effective.  So in a sense a guy like Nicklaus who used a key thought here or there that changed week to week almost his whole career was taking advantage of his subconscious as well as managing his flaws over time.

I think attention is like energy and concentration is like focusing attention like light through a fresnel lens.  The funny thing is the swing thought a golfer believes is the real deal usually has nothing to do with why that makes him effective.  It's like tricking your ego in a sense but who cares if that works for you?

So nothing wrong with swing thought or focus.  Thats mental and that is the genesis of the mechanics.  Big diff though between actual thoughts and focus in the brains feel channel or for others who prefer it visualization.

To me the fact that one great way to help a person swinging way outside in is to put some piece of foam or head over in their way and have them hit the ball while missing the physical thing works so well is it changes the mind to external focus.

That thing in the way is a mental aid.  It forces the focus to be external which is imo ideal but that's just my opinion.  Everyone's a little different.  

 

 

Edited October 1, 2017 by Jack Watson

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

My take is concentration is paramount in golf during the swing.  That's mental.

Nah. I can be telling a joke or talking about something unrelated and hit better golf shots than most people.

Changing the picture is physical.

[Vinsk]

11 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

Imo once you have developed the basic skill of swinging the club then playing the game is much more mental than physical.

You seem to take this rather important step for granted. Also, it is this 'basic skill' that is physical. Mental fortitude may effect how one arrives there (minimally) but this is a physical achievement. 

[johnclayton1982]

2 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

@Phil McGleno

What I am alluding to is not necessarily golf specific.  But thanks for the specific and well thought out contribution. 

My take is concentration is paramount in golf during the swing.  That's mental.  Muscles cannot concentrate.

Sometimes golf for people is extremely counterintuitive.  Any average golfer can admit that changing the picture takes work.  That's changing the intent which is again mental.

Its all about what your intention is.  This gets into another point I like to talk about which is swing thoughts.  Often we lock into a swing thought or key for a period of time and play very well.  Why does that work?  People think they have found gold with some idea like bump the hip and go or lead with right elbow or point the butt of the club at the ball.  Why does it always fail over the long haul?  Obviously swings change a little over time.  

When we find that mental swing thought that's working we become very intent in the belief that doing this will make the result we want to have happen happen.

IMO Part of that effect is that since conscious energy and attention are finite things that picking a thought like that allows the parts we are not focusing on to act subconsciously.

In most cases this is much more effective.  So in a sense a guy like Nicklaus who used a key thought here or there that changed week to week almost his whole career was taking advantage of his subconscious as well as managing his flaws over time.

I think attention is like energy and concentration is like focusing attention like light through a fresnel lens.  The funny thing is the swing thought a golfer believes is the real deal usually has nothing to do with why that makes him effective.  It's like tricking your ego in a sense but who cares if that works for you?

So nothing wrong with swing thought or focus.  Thats mental and that is the genesis of the mechanics.  Big diff though between actual thoughts and focus in the brains feel channel or for others who prefer it visualization.

To me the fact that one great way to help a person swinging way outside in is to put some piece of foam or head over in their way and have them hit the ball while missing the physical thing works so well is it changes the mind to external focus.

That thing in the way is a mental aid.  It forces the focus to be external which is imo ideal but that's just my opinion.  Everyone's a little different.  

 

 

This is like saying that bricks are more important to a power plant than plutonium.  That is technically true, but misleading.

Your muscles don't work without orders from your brain.  So mental is obviously the answer!!  Genius.  You "using your subconscious" isn't "mental" just like you winning the lottery isn't "using" your skills at picking random numbers.  Which is more important at winning the lottery, anyways, your skill in picking random numbers or how lucky you are?  That is basically what you are asking here if you define "mental" to include the subconscious, because you don't control it.

As iacas said, he can play better without any mental effort than most.

A much more interesting question is whether or not conscious decisions (such as course management) are more important than the physical ability to execute those decisions.  Injecting the subconscious is a crutch that makes your question nonsensical.

Your swing thought ideas are similarly probably not accurate.  If I flip a coin a million times, I'll get 100 heads in a row at some point.  If I hit a lot of golf shots thinking about random nonsense, I'll hit 100 good shots in a row thinking about that nonsense.  That doesn't mean the swing thought caused it.  In fact, the fact that it goes away means it probably did *not* cause it.  You have zero evidence that thought produced any good result.  You just know the two happened at the same time.

Here's how gambling hotlines work.  You call a 1-900 number.  You get a "free pick", the Packers versus Bears.  They say Packers.  Packers win! They put you in a pile.  The next week, another 50/50 and pile separates again.  After 10 games they have a pile of names that they've been "right" on 10 weeks in a row, and they start to charge.  But they weren't actually right.  They just guessed randomly a whole lot and some people got hit 10 times straight.  Same thing hitting a golf ball with a certain swing thought, for the most part.

You are as good as you are.  No more, no less.  If the swing thought was causing you to be good, it wouldn't stop working.  Now, swing thoughts can get you out of your own way, etc... but they arn't magic beans that turns someone with mediocre mechanics permanently into someone with good mechanics.

Its not "the power of the mind".  Its "the power of hitting a whole lot of balls while randomly trying thoughts constantly and someone of them being good".  So, with regard to the swing, the mind doesn't matter.

 

With regard to the score, we can talk.

Edited October 1, 2017 by johnclayton1982

[mcanadiens]

Here's another way of putting it.

Hitting a golf ball when you are mad is very hard. That's mental.

Having a swing that is good enough that you don't get mad is physical.

Bigger upside with physical. A lot of us aren't there.

 

 

[johnclayton1982]

2 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

Here's another way of putting it.

Hitting a golf ball when you are mad is very hard. That's mental.

Having a swing that is good enough that you don't get mad is physical.

Bigger upside with physical. A lot of us aren't there.

 

 

You can't hit a golf ball when your mad because your muscles are full of nodreneline and can't 'function. That's physical.

Chicken, egg.  Its a completely nonsensical question.

[mcanadiens]

1 minute ago, johnclayton1982 said:

You can't hit a golf ball when your mad because your muscles are full of nodreneline and can't 'function. That's physical.

Without the mental you don't get mad and there isn't any "nodreneline" (I don't know, but I'll take your word for it). You don't get mad if you don't think about it.

[johnclayton1982]

2 minutes ago, mcanadiens said:

Without the mental you don't get mad and there isn't any "nodreneline" (I don't know, but I'll take your word for it). You don't get mad if you don't think about it.

Right.  Chicken, egg.  Why are you getting mad?  Did you hit a bad shot the previous shot? Physical.

 

We can do this all the way back to when your car left its garage headed to the course.

 

Your mental and physical cannot be separated like this.  Its ridiculous.

Edited October 1, 2017 by johnclayton1982

[Jack Watson]

@johnclayton1982

reread.

point missed.

reason one can talk while swinging is explained above and in actual fact supports my point.

conscious mind talking keeps it from interfering with the swing.

again if you want to post read what was laid out before comparing concrete and plutonium on a golf forum

[johnclayton1982]

9 minutes ago, Jack Watson said:

@johnclayton1982

reread.

point missed.

reason one can talk while swinging is explained above and in actual fact supports my point.

conscious mind talking keeps it from interfering with the swing.

again if you want to post read what was laid out before comparing concrete and plutonium on a golf forum

OK, to completely simplify it, mental because physical doesn't exist.  When someone goes to golf evolution or golf now or whatever, the mind is being trained.  The conscious mind is the most important part because it is the only party you actually control.  Whether you think keeping it involved or getting it out of the way is better is irrelevant.  Its the only thing you control, so its the most important thing to you.  When you practice you arn't literally programming something into your bicep likes a Dell computer.  Your training your mental facilities, which use its tool (the bicep) later.  There is no "physical".  This is unique to golf.  We are not reacting to anything and our size is irrelevant because we are not colliding with any other players.

Which is more important?  To have a really niceback hoe but nobody to turn it on or run it or to have a nice back hoe with a set of keys and a licensed operator?

This entire thing is silly.  Your muscles are tools.  Its all mental, every single bit.  And those players who do well with unorthodox swings are either (a) on to something (like the first jump shots instead of set shots) or (b) so good they can win in spite of poor technique.

[mvmac]

13 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

The op was about the game of golf.  I voted mental.

So if you wanted to get to a 3 handicap, you think improving your mental game is going to get you there? Improving the mental (more positive outlook or whatever) isn't going to change the physical (which is the reason you're an 8). Golfers can be as zen as they want and it's not going to change the fact they flip it.

13 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

So much of it for me is the challenge of concentration and not allowing distraction and ones own self to get in the way.  

These guys hit great shots just screwing around like this, not much concentration. The difference is that they are really, really good with the physical part of the game.

 

13 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

I agree with Hogan that anyone with average physical ability can break 80 with a proper intelligent mental approach.  Beyond that I think talent comes into play as well.

Yeah and how much of his book is dedicated to the mental game? By far it's mostly about the physical part of the game.

1 hour ago, mcanadiens said:

Here's another way of putting it.

Hitting a golf ball when you are mad is very hard. That's mental.

Having a swing that is good enough that you don't get mad is physical.

Bigger upside with physical. A lot of us aren't there.

That doesn't make any sense. I've hit a ton of good shots after I've gotten pissed. Just watch any tournament on TV, it happens all the time.

You can't avoid or trick yourself out of getting mad, it's a normal human response. Golf is an extremely frustrating game, at any level. No ones physical skills will be so good that they'll never get mad.

Also, getting mad isn't necessarily a bad thing, a lot of times it can be a positive thing.

[Vinsk]

I think @david_wedzik had the best response to all of this. At least as Erik reported.

2 minutes ago, mvmac said:

So if you wanted to get to a 3 handicap, you think improving your mental game is going to get you there? Improving the mental (more positive outlook or whatever) isn't going to change the physical (which is the reason you're an 8). Golfers can be as zen as they want and it's not going to change the fact they flip it.

These guys hit great shots just screwing around like this, not much concentration. The difference is that they are really, really good with the physical part of the game.

 

Yeah and how much of his book is dedicated to the mental game? By far it's mostly about the physical part of the game.

That doesn't make any sense. I've hit a ton of good shots after I've gotten pissed. Just watch any tournament on TV, it happens all the time.

You can't avoid or trick yourself out of getting mad, it's a normal human response. Golf is an extremely frustrating game, at any level. No ones physical skills will be so good that they'll never get mad.

Also, getting mad isn't necessarily a bad thing, a lot of times it can be a positive thing.

This and Mike’s other responses have so clearly explained the physical argument. Not sure what else is needed. @Jack Watson for someone who feels the golf swing is so primitively simple you sure put a lot of philosophical mojo garb into it. Hell, just swing the damn thing right? 

[jsgolfer]

 

10 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

 

I think attention is like energy and concentration is like focusing attention like light through a fresnel lens.  The funny thing is the swing thought a golfer believes is the real deal usually has nothing to do with why that makes him effective.  It's like tricking your ego in a sense but who cares if that works for you?

Dude, really? "Attention is like energy and concentration is like focusing attention like light through a fresnel lens"  What the hell are you talking about?

"Concentration is paramount which means mental is the genesis of the mechanics.  So the swing just manifests itself through thought alone.  I can't believe that your not a pro with as easy as the swing is with your superior mental ability. You got so much psychobabble going on in this post, I'm not sure I'll ever have another thought, little lone another golf thought. Good grief?

[boogielicious]

I think some folks want golf to be mental because they feel that is easier work on and change/improve. Physical change takes work, a lot of work. That can be daunting.

[Lihu]

6 hours ago, sjduffers said:

Sure, you're right: I can't do that. But with the flag at 145 yds from me and having to go over a tree 75 feet high somewhere in between, I can probably do that with a 6i, as long as it launches high. Hence the visualization, because I have done before I can picture it in my mind and I can picture myself doing it (not DJ or some other player).

Again, visualization is not magically going to make you hit shots that you can't hit, physically. It can help you hit shot as are within your skills, especially if the visualization is recalling a successful prior instance of the same thing.

Ah, okay. You're just picturing your normal shot. I'm not sure that work prevent you from duffing or thinning the ball into the tree though. The outcome wouldn't really depend upon how well I can visualize it?

[saevel25]

Pretty much what @mvmac said. 

Some of my best shots come after hitting a bad one, when I was mad. 

In some regards, overthinking and not letting the physical part of the game is more detrimental. 

The golf game is physical, and most golfers are just using the word mental as an excuse. I've seen higher handicaps have extreme concentration and hit a crappy shot. I've seen good golfers just walk up to the ball and hit a good shot with out much effort.