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No "full" shots inside ~150 yards


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8 hours ago, klineka said:

Who specifically are you referring to, is it @billchaoΒ ?

If so, he didnt say he can choose between sucking it back and drop and stop. He said a full swing does a drop and stop (definitely realistic for a 15 hcp) and a flighted swing does drop and release forward 10 feet or so.

The other person I saw mentioning about excessive spin was @Pretzel and hes at a +1 so I dont think you were talking about him.Β 

Drop and stop is realistic for a 15 handicap, as is sucking it back for a +1 handicap...

I haven't updated my profile handicap in a while... But we'll go with I'm in the middle... Can I suck it back? Ummm... Maybe a foot or so... Am I a drop and stop sort of guy... More or less.

But in this next phase of my game, I'm playing shotsΒ that are much more consistent than what I was hitting before. If I miss a green from 150 yards and in now, it's not by very much...

I played 27 holes yesterday, I did only hit 9/27 greens in regulation, however, almost all of my missed greens were nGIR, and most of those we within 10 feet of the edge.

It's definitely better than it was with this way of playing shots from 150 yards and in, because with my driving distance most of my iron shots into par-4s on my home course are from 150 yards and in.

"GIR is King, nGIR is Queen."- Lowest Score Wins.Β 

As a side note, that is only tangentially related. (It's a slightly different skill)Β  My pitches and chips have started to get better, since I purposely started playing the shorter swing shots.

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39 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

Drop and stop is realistic for a 15 handicap, as is sucking it back for a +1 handicap...

I haven't updated my profile handicap in a while... But we'll go with I'm in the middle... Can I suck it back? Ummm... Maybe a foot or so... Am I a drop and stop sort of guy... More or less.

But in this next phase of my game, I'm playing shotsΒ that are much more consistent than what I was hitting before. If I miss a green from 150 yards and in now, it's not by very much...

I played 27 holes yesterday, I did only hit 9/27 greens in regulation, however, almost all of my missed greens were nGIR, and most of those we within 10 feet of the edge.

It's definitely better than it was with this way of playing shots from 150 yards and in, because with my driving distance most of my iron shots into par-4s on my home course are from 150 yards and in.

"GIR is King, nGIR is Queen."- Lowest Score Wins.Β 

As a side note, that is only tangentially related. (It's a slightly different skill)Β  My pitches and chips have started to get better, since I purposely started playing the shorter swing shots.

I really like that phrase. Im not the best golfer and often miss greens short or short left and get annoyed. Nice to know GIR isnt the be all and end all.

Russ, from "sunny" Yorkshire = :-(Β 

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17 minutes ago, RussUK said:

I really like that phrase. Im not the best golfer and often miss greens short or short left and get annoyed. Nice to know GIR isnt the be all and end all.

Thanks. But I didn't write it. @iacasΒ and @david_wedzikΒ did in their bookΒ Lowest Score Wins.

What's in Shane's Bag?Β  Β  Β 

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1 hour ago, onthehunt526 said:

Drop and stop is realistic for a 15 handicap, as is sucking it back for a +1 handicap...

I haven't updated my profile handicap in a while... But we'll go with I'm in the middle... Can I suck it back? Ummm... Maybe a foot or so... Am I a drop and stop sort of guy... More or less.

I absolutely agree with you. I know that drop and stop is realistic for 15 hcp and a plus +1 could suck it back.Β I am in a similar spot as you. Most of my full wedge shots from the fairway or light rough stop within about 5 feet or the pitch mark in any direction. Sometimes itll hit and stick, sometimes hit and come back a foot or two, sometimes itll hit and hop a foot or two forward. But I dont have the ability to control whether it hits and stops or hits and sucks back.

I want to know who @Jack WatsonΒ was trying to call out. Based on all of the responses I read, there were no 15 hcpers claiming to be able to choose between drop and stop and zipping the ball back 15 feet.Β 

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Reading a discussion about drop-and-stop vs pulling it back 15 feet makes me think, "geez, these guys are a LOT better than I am."Β Β  I'm just trying to hit the dang green.Β  And if I hit it, hoping it stays on the green.Β  Drop and stop vs yanking the cord?Β Β  Anyone who can do that is REALLY GOOD as far as I'm concerned.Β 

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13 minutes ago, Marty2019 said:

Reading a discussion about drop-and-stop vs pulling it back 15 feet makes me think, "geez, these guys are a LOT better than I am."Β Β  I'm just trying to hit the dang green.Β  And if I hit it, hoping it stays on the green.Β  Drop and stop vs yanking the cord?Β Β  Anyone who can do that is REALLY GOOD as far as I'm concerned.Β 

With a wedge in my hand, that is my main thought as well, to just get it on the green. I'm just sharing how my ball typically reacts when it does land on the green. I cant recall ever seeing my own ball spin back more than a couple feet.

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I'm not very good. With that being said, my yardage gaps are consistent (10-15yds) all the way through my bag so fairway shots >95 yards are always full shots for me. I practice <95yd shots on the range regularly, so I am capable of rolling a 3/4 swing out across my bag.

Now, I'm not very good (remember?). With that being said, I am in trouble frequently off the tee and I have to focus on less-than-full swings regularly to get the ball back in play. Off-fairway/slight trouble, my go-to play is a 6i since i can keep it low (read: under aΒ tree) and can control distance "pretty well" anywhere from 100-150yds, typically staying withinΒ 20 yards of intended target. Sometimes this is more of a punch shot, other times I am trying to draw it around trees (mostly unsuccessfully). But - If I am my full 6i distance though, I am hitting a full 6.

The biggest problem I have is instead of taking a 3/4 full swing, I have the tendency to decelerate leading me to hit about 24" behind the ballΒ - this is why I typically opt in for full swings when I can. Purely Mental...

Maybe I'll get on the range and try this "flighting" technique a bit more

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13 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

In most of golf, Β the distance max for a club is irrelevant. Β It's about dispersion and repeatability.

I dunno about the Internet crowd but for me I want drop and stop shooting at greens. Β A 15 cap here says he can choose between sucking it back or drop and stop on gw?

Sorry gotta call Bravo Sierra on that nonsense.

It really depends upon why they're a 15 handicap. A high swing speed is basically all you need to back up the ball. If they can make a 56 degree wedge hiss aggressively, they can probably back it up on firm greens. There are many 15 handicaps who can swing really fast, but hit lots of trees on the way to the green. :whistle:

Β 

12 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

If I live to be 100 I'll never understand how anyone on an internet forumΒ can call BS on another's ability when they've never seen them play.

It's right in line with the "you can't possibly drive the ball 300 yards, you're a 20 capper", or "statistics prove your full swing and not your puttingΒ is the real reason you suck" type of reasoning.

Sure, this is true. Even instructors who've been "doing it for years" and "seen 100,000s of thousands of golfers" can make be mistaken about someone's ability even seeing them up close.

The problem is no one knows what's going on "in your swing" except yourself. Even then, may of us don't know.

The 300 yard 20 capper example you gave is not unrealistic. An old instructor who fit many clubs over half a century told me that the average male should be able to get 105mph swing speed. He based this on understanding mechanics and seeing people's swings are not even close to optimal. He's a TGM advocate, and seems to know his stuff. On the internet could sound just like a 76 year old kooky golfer, but in real life he makes a lot of sense and has a great swing to back it.

Edited by Lihu

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2 hours ago, klineka said:

I want to know who @Jack WatsonΒ was trying to call out. Based on all of the responses I read, there were no 15 hcpers claiming to be able to choose between drop and stop and zipping the ball back 15 feet.Β 

Don't worry about @Jack WatsonΒ and his trolling. He didn't even comprehend my entire post.

1 hour ago, Marty2019 said:

Reading a discussion about drop-and-stop vs pulling it back 15 feet makes me think, "geez, these guys are a LOT better than I am."Β Β  I'm just trying to hit the dang green.Β  And if I hit it, hoping it stays on the green.Β  Drop and stop vs yanking the cord?Β Β  Anyone who can do that is REALLY GOOD as far as I'm concerned.Β 

Yea I don't think anyone said that at all, so I wouldn't worry about it. @PretzelΒ mentioned he was sucking his full shots off the green so he started flighting them so they spun less, but he's a +1.

19 minutes ago, Lihu said:

It really depends upon why they're a 15 handicap. A high swing speed is basically all you need to back up the ball.

Pretty much. High swing speed, clean contact, and a steep descent angle is all you really need to spin a ball on the green.

Bill

β€œBy three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

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1 hour ago, tsdugger said:

I'm not very good. With that being said, my yardage gaps are consistent (10-15yds) all the way through my bag so fairway shots >95 yards are always full shots for me. I practice <95yd shots on the range regularly, so I am capable of rolling a 3/4 swing out across my bag.

Now, I'm not very good (remember?). With that being said, I am in trouble frequently off the tee and I have to focus on less-than-full swings regularly to get the ball back in play. Off-fairway/slight trouble, my go-to play is a 6i since i can keep it low (read: under aΒ tree) and can control distance "pretty well" anywhere from 100-150yds, typically staying withinΒ 20 yards of intended target. Sometimes this is more of a punch shot, other times I am trying to draw it around trees (mostly unsuccessfully). But - If I am my full 6i distance though, I am hitting a full 6.

The biggest problem I have is instead of taking a 3/4 full swing, I have the tendency to decelerate leading me to hit about 24" behind the ballΒ - this is why I typically opt in for full swings when I can. Purely Mental...

Maybe I'll get on the range and try this "flighting" technique a bit more

Β 

Flighting, as @iacasΒ pointed out, is another very good technique to take distance off of a full swing distance.

I use the shorter backswing/shorter follow through method. Because I find it's simpler... I struggle with flighting. If I want to hit a lower shot, I take more club with less swing.

I get what you mean by decelerating though with 3/4 swings. Sometimes it happens to me, and I bottom out too soon, and there you go chunky monkey. My swing thought for those of you who use the shorter swing method (primarily with wedges), is keep your downswing the same tempo as if you were hitting a full shot.Β 

That's just my thought, remember I'm not a pro, and I surely don't claim to be.

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2 hours ago, tsdugger said:

The biggest problem I have is instead of taking a 3/4 full swing, I have the tendency to decelerate leading me to hit about 24" behind the ball

I'm having a hard time picturing how you accomplish thisΒ :-P

58 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

I get what you mean by decelerating though with 3/4 swings. Sometimes it happens to me, and I bottom out too soon, and there you go chunky monkey. My swing thought for those of you who use the shorter swing method (primarily with wedges), is keep your downswing the same tempo as if you were hitting a full shot.Β 

When I do it, I shorten my backswing and saw off the finish.Β I'll take a practice swing to get that feel down. But during the downswing, like you said, I'm swinging with the same amount of force as if I was making a full swing, only the window for acceleration is smaller. I'm trying to make a fast swing to an abbreviated stop.

Bill

β€œBy three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

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(edited)
37 minutes ago, billchao said:

I'm having a hard time picturing how you accomplish thisΒ :-P

When I do it, I shorten my backswing and saw off the finish.Β I'll take a practice swing to get that feel down. But during the downswing, like you said, I'm swinging with the same amount of force as if I was making a full swing, only the window for acceleration is smaller. I'm trying to make a fast swing to an abbreviated stop.

I try to get the feeling of what I'm trying to do in my practice swing as well. It helps to also visualize the shot you want to play.Β 

I'll give an example: I'm about 125 yards to the flag with no trouble in front of the green. I can play this shot with as many as 4 different clubs. Depending on the wind and where on the green the flagstick is located, I chose the type of shot that lands a little short of the hole, and takes 1 bounce and either stops dead with a front pin... Maybe one with a little bit of release with a middle pin... And perhaps slightly more with a back pin... So some days, it could be a 3/4 wedge with a wind behind, other days it could be a 7i.

My keys are: 1.Β Visualization of how you want the ball to react when it hits the ground.

2. Visualization of the trajectory to achieve Key 1.

3. Getting the feeling of the length of swing to achieve Keys 1 and 2.Β 

Before I even set-up to the shot, I talk myself through what I want to do, but I keep it simple, so I only have one swing thought.Β 

This seems to work for me, but I don't know what some of the better players will say.

This might be "flighting" to some, but I'm not trying to overcomplicate it for myself. So I don't think of it as "flighting".

Edited by onthehunt526

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I've been working one thisΒ since reading LSW earlier this year. A full swing with my 8-9-PW tended to turn into a pull which generally ended up past pin high in the inevitable left green side bunker. Now I'm working on a 3/4 swing and flighting those irons (added 7i to the mix) and I've helped reduce the pulls - but I counter by thinning around half the shots. Now I seem to have a niceΒ Β a straight ball flight - just some are waist high as they scream over the green. Oh Well, at least I have something to work on during the winter ;-).

Just an older guy with 7 or 8 Β clubs and a MacKenzie Walker bag

Β 

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5 hours ago, Lihu said:

Sure, this is true. Even instructors who've been "doing it for years" and "seen 100,000s of thousands of golfers" can make be mistaken about someone's ability even seeing them up close.

I mayΒ disagree with you on this, but I get your point. Most of usΒ can only apply general knowledge (what we think is knowledge)Β to a group. Within any group, there is certainly variation of strengths and weaknesses.

The examples I gave were probably not good ones, but when some start accusing a 15 of not being able to pull off a flighted shot, it just becomes stupid. As @billchaoΒ said, it's trollish behavior.

I wish there was a way to challenge someone calling BS. Maybe a friendly wager or at least an admission of being wrong one way or the other.

7 hours ago, Marty2019 said:

Reading a discussion about drop-and-stop vs pulling it back 15 feet makes me think, "geez, these guys are a LOT better than I am."Β Β  I'm just trying to hit the dang green.Β  And if I hit it, hoping it stays on the green.Β  Drop and stop vs yanking the cord?Β Β  Anyone who can do that is REALLY GOOD as far as I'm concerned.Β 

Marty, you have a "broke 80" award. I'd say you can do a helluva lot of things I cannot. I can't speak for anyone else, but when I claim to be "pretty good" at something, it's relative to the rest of my game or maybe what I think others at my index can do.

But our games are what they are. Meaning, for anything I might excel at, there are obviously many others I struggle with. Otherwise, I wouldn't be shootingΒ high scores.

BTW, I can't flight a shot. Unless I have to get under a branch, I don't even try to change trajectory on my shots. The only way I know how to hit any ironΒ shot - partial or full swing - is to keep the trajectory high. While that might help me hold an occasional green,Β I don't get a lot of distance and it makes playing in a strong wind that much more difficult.

If I excel at anything (and I'm not sure I do, even at my level) it's an ability to hit greens or near greens with partial swings at various distances from 130 yds and in. Unfortunately,Β that skill doesn't make up for all the other things I'm so awful at.

Jon

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53 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

I mayΒ disagree with you on this, but I get your point. Most of usΒ can only apply general knowledge (what we think is knowledge)Β to a group. Within any group, there is certainly variation of strengths and weaknesses.

Β 

Specifically, how would you disagree on this?

By stating what I did, all I meant is it's not possible to judge with 100% certainty a person's potential by watching them do a few actions on a video or even in person. You'd have to work with them for a while to really know.

:ping:Β  :tmade:Β Β :callaway:Β Β Β :gamegolf:Β Β :titleist:

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Lets keep this on topic please.

Bill

β€œBy three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

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7 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

use the shorter backswing/shorter follow through method. Because I find it's simpler... I struggle with flighting. If I want to hit a lower shot, I take more club with less swing.

Curious what you think flighting is…

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27 minutes ago, iacas said:

Curious what you think flighting is…

Something to the extent of the shorter backswing/shorter follow-through, ball back in your stance a smidge, and grip down a bit.Β 

So in other words, I probably do it, sub-consciously without really thinking about it.

Except I don't change my ball position much. (At least I'm not thinking about it if I do)

What's in Shane's Bag?Β  Β  Β 

Ball: 2022 :callaway:Β Chrome Soft Triple Track

Driver: :callaway:Paradym Triple Diamond 8Β° MCA Kai’li 70s FW: :callaway:Paradym Triple DiamondΒ Β H: :callaway:Β Apex Pro 21 20Β°

I (3-PW) :callaway: Apex 21 UST Recoil 95 (3), Recoil 110 (4-PW). Wedges: :callaway:Β Jaws Raw 50Β°, 54Β°, 60Β° UST Recoil 110

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