New Rules for Video Call-Ins

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

If it's not caught in time, it shouldn't count towards penalizing the player for signing an incorrect scorecard.

You say this as if it's self evident.

Yet here we have a situation where a competitor breaches the rules, people know about it, and they're not penalized. The outcome of the event is inaccurate. And further yet, there's no penalty for "forgetting" to include a penalty or "not knowing" that you incurred one.

[Ty_Webb]

1 hour ago, socialputts said:

All penalties applied increase the accuracy of the scores, not the competition.  If you're tied for the lead after a round but find out after the round that you incurred 2, 2 stroke penalties on the first hole, the competition has been impacted.  If you were really four shots off the lead, you would have certainly played the rest of your round differently and so would other players.  As a spectator, this sucks too.  You paid your money or sat and watched 4 hours of competition only to realize that the players didn't really know where they stood the entire day.

It's not hard to imagine a golfer winning a tourney by one stroke, getting the check and the trophy only to have someone identify what could be a 2 stroke penalty as they watch the tourney on their DVR that night.  When, if ever, is the round and tourney considered 'done'?  

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing to let anyone get away with any rules violations.  The violations need to be recognized immediately and enforcement should be immediate.  We should strive to take the 'less than ideal' scenarios off the board.  If golf is missing things that the public is catching, they simply aren't doing enough to enforce their own rules.

I 100% agree that they should be doing everything they can to minimize the impact of these things. Having an official watch the coverage to make sure that they catch any breaches in real time is definitely sensible. I applaud that. We should strive to take the 'less than ideal' scenarios off the board. Not penalizing someone for a breach because they found out about the breach on twitter is bringing a 'less than ideal' scenario onto the board. Not off it.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, socialputts said:

It's not hard to imagine a golfer winning a tourney by one stroke, getting the check and the trophy only to have someone identify what could be a 2 stroke penalty as they watch the tourney on their DVR that night.  When, if ever, is the round and tourney considered 'done'?

When the competition is closed, it's too late to add penalties, except in specific cases like a player knowingly having breached the Rules, in which case there's no statute of limitations.

These are things you can look up and know already.

1 hour ago, socialputts said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing to let anyone get away with any rules violations.

Really?

1 hour ago, socialputts said:

The violations need to be recognized immediately and enforcement should be immediate.

The problem is that they may not be recognized immediately. And again, what if it is recognized immediately, and 20 spectators have video of a clear breach occurring… no penalty! So tell me again how you're not arguing to let players get away with any violations?

1 hour ago, socialputts said:

We should strive to take the 'less than ideal' scenarios off the board.

You know what strikes me as "less than ideal?" A player committing a breach but not being penalized. Players not knowing the rules of the sport that has made them wealthy. Players being encouraged to claim ignorance and write down a 4 that was probably a 6 knowing that the worst case scenario is that they get a 6, and likely just get away with the 4.

Those all strike me as less than ideal.

While I was typing that up, @Ty_Webb added another.

1 hour ago, DeadMan said:

Wouldn't that scenario be a disqualification? You may have breached a rule, and you know about it, but you don't report it? That seems like something that should be an automatic DQ.

I said the person didn't know they breached the rules. There's not even an incentive to ask now; they can just claim "I didn't know. Oh, sorry, add the stroke penalty." That's all they'll get now.

29 minutes ago, Denny Bang Bang said:

That whole Lexi thing... that was annoying to watch.  It took away the enjoyment of watching the final day for me.

Blame the appropriate person: Lexi Thompson.

[mvmac]

Next rules update will designate two-foot putts as gimmes 

4 hours ago, iacas said:

Ignorance will now be rewarded and we may find ourselves in a situation where a player commits a breach, the world at large sees it, but they're not penalized.

Hopefully if it's that clear and that many people see it, then the USGA official designated to the telecast will also spot it.

But you know eventually something is going to happen and the official is going to miss it.

[DeadMan]

51 minutes ago, iacas said:

I said the person didn't know they breached the rules. There's not even an incentive to ask now; they can just claim "I didn't know. Oh, sorry, add the stroke penalty." That's all they'll get now.

I think there's a distinction between having no idea they broke the rules and thinking there's a chance they broke the rules. In the latter, it's dishonest not to bring it up, and I think would merit a DQ under the rules as written.

I do see your point, though. It encourages ignorance of the rules, and it's hard to police whether someone was being honest.

[Denny Bang Bang]

45 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Blame the appropriate person: Lexi Thompson.

Lexi did something wrong, agreed.  But having the penalty enforced a day/round later, that was annoying to watch unfold.  I think it should be enforced by the start of the following round, or it’s over.  (Similar to football in the sense that a penalty can’t be called a quarter later... or even a play later)

I obviously have no control over what the rules are, but in my opinion, the above would be a fair/reasonable way to adjust the rules... vs. just getting rid of the penalty 

[rehmwa]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 No penalty for trying to get away with it, or for not knowing it.

 

In that case, then no one should ever point out any rules infraction to a player until after he/she signs the score card.  If one really wants to teach them to know and play the rules exactly.

 

They could have simply added an official or three to watch coverage and try to beat any watchers to finding anything.  If they were doing the job well, eventually the call-ins would stop as the audience trusts the officials.  No need to add the extra rule boxing out callins before proving this will work.

Edited December 11, 2017 by rehmwa

[JetFan1983]

Add me to the list of people who thinks this change is terrible. It's been proven again and again that many on tour (not all), men or women, don't care one lick about the rules. They believe they are above them or that the rules are "too complicated." Many of them don't get that they are responsible for knowing them -- and that by knowing them they are protecting the field and the integrity of the tournament. Hell, in a lot of cases, they don't even think knowing the rules is important. To make matters even worse, they think that those who call-in are terrible human beings. They go after these people on social media. They want these people publicly shamed by their legions of followers. They are, in a lot of ways, sadistic and brutish with their influence, governed mostly by a warped perception of what justice and fairness is. These people are nothing more than well established morons with savant-like ball striking ability. Most of them have probably never once had an original thought in their entire lives. 

It's a shame.

I feel like this guy right now in a lot of ways:

What a joke. 

[mdl]

4 hours ago, saevel25 said:

I don't get why people want to protect Tour players not knowing the rules. Shouldn't a prerequisite for being a PGA Tour player is knowing the rules of the game you are playing! There is no other sport that allows ignorance as a way to get out of a penalty being enforced.

I'm of two minds on this one.  I get that golf isn't like other games, where it's all happening in a single place and you can have refs in place to watch "everything" that's happening.  So perhaps some kind of distributed officiating like can happen now is a good idea.  But the backwards looking officiating also seems like bullshit to me.  I agree that Lexi broke the rules.  She moved that ball more than you can under the rules.  But getting a delayed penalty, the next day, seems like BS to me, regardless of whether it comes from someone calling it in or from rules officials reviewing footage at the end of the day or whatever.

IMO, at the least, when a round is over, you shouldn't be able to get retroactive penalties on it.  Imagine if an official was allowed to review film after an NFL game, decide after the fact that there was a personal foul facemask penalty on the kicking team on a game winning field goal, and delete the points and award the game to the other team, or call it a draw or something.

[saevel25]

2 minutes ago, mdl said:

IMO, at the least, when a round is over, you shouldn't be able to get retroactive penalties on it.  Imagine if an official was allowed to review film after an NFL game, decide after the fact that there was a personal foul facemask penalty on the kicking team on a game winning field goal, and delete the points and award the game to the other team, or call it a draw or something.

An NFL game is final. A tournament lasts 4 rounds. Once the tournament is finalized then it is over.

[iacas]

19 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

I think there's a distinction between having no idea they broke the rules and thinking there's a chance they broke the rules. In the latter, it's dishonest not to bring it up, and I think would merit a DQ under the rules as written.

The point is… how would you know that they were unsure? They didn't know. They were unaware. They could say "I didn't know that was a penalty" and there's no additional penalty. No DQ. Nada.

19 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

I do see your point, though. It encourages ignorance of the rules, and it's hard to police whether someone was being honest.

Right.

17 minutes ago, Denny Bang Bang said:

Lexi did something wrong, agreed.  But having the penalty enforced a day/round later, that was annoying to watch unfold.

Cool. But you still need to blame Lexi. She should have either a) put the ball back in the right spot (followed the rules to begin with), or b) called the penalty on herself.

I understand that it was "annoying to watch." But blame Lexi. It's her fault. She committed the breach.

17 minutes ago, Denny Bang Bang said:

I think it should be enforced by the start of the following round, or it’s over.

The competition isn't over. The close of the tournament effectively, in most cases, does what you're asking it to do.

The football example doesn't work, because in golf you can add a penalty stroke a "play" later, or a "hole" later.

17 minutes ago, Denny Bang Bang said:

I obviously have no control over what the rules are, but in my opinion, the above would be a fair/reasonable way to adjust the rules... vs. just getting rid of the penalty 

It'd be better than what we got today! I agree with you there. I still think it's too soft, but these rules today are ridiculously soft.

7 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

In that case, then no one should ever point out any rules infraction to a player until after he/she signs the score card. If one really wants to teach them to know and play the rules exactly.

Yes they should. It's part of the etiquette of the game. It's even part of the etiquette to help prevent a rules breach if you can. Waiting to "teach them a lesson" is a straw man of sorts. I don't think it's ever happened.

The players are responsible for knowing the rules. These rules greatly reduce the penalty for not knowing and following the rules. That saddens me.

If I read what you typed there wrong, let me know.

7 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

They could have simply added an official or three to watch coverage and try to beat any watchers to finding anything.  If they were doing the job well, eventually the call-ins would stop as the audience trusts the officials.  No need to add the extra rule boxing out callins before proving this will work.

I agree with that too. I'd have been okay with them saying only "we're going to have rules officials watching the telecast, so we can eventually eliminate the need for anyone to call in."

3 minutes ago, mdl said:

But getting a delayed penalty, the next day, seems like BS to me, regardless of whether it comes from someone calling it in or from rules officials reviewing footage at the end of the day or whatever.

Why? Because it just "feels" bad? The rule was in place to ensure that players had an incentive to know the rules and write sign for an accurate score.

3 minutes ago, mdl said:

IMO, at the least, when a round is over, you shouldn't be able to get retroactive penalties on it.

Why? What if you commit a penalty on the 18th green, and walk off and sign your card two minutes later? Did you commit the infraction or not?

3 minutes ago, mdl said:

Imagine if an official was allowed to review film after an NFL game

OMG, this is not equivalent to other sports. Referees are responsible for following the rules in other sports, and the other team is immediately and directly affected. Neither of those are true in golf!

And hey, look at what happened in the Tour de France. Lance Armstrong had medals stripped years after the fact, no? So it sometimes DOES happen in other sports.

[rehmwa]

3 minutes ago, iacas said:

Waiting to "teach them a lesson" is a straw man of sorts. I don't think it's ever happened.

If I read what you typed there wrong, let me know.

 

Nope - you read that correctly.  Though "Teach them a lesson" is meant in the literal sense of the phrase, not the vindictive version usually used.  2 extra strokes certainly does teach pros to pay more attention and be more knowledgable.

[Fourputt]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

People will counter with "but their honor and integrity will stop them," to which I'd counter with all of the recent examples of people who don't know the rules or who say "I didn't intend to step on that divot" (though he clearly did), or whatever.

After all, too, if you're ignorant to the rules you it's not about your honesty or integrity.

Actually I feel that it very well could be about honesty and integrity.  A player deliberately makes no effort to gain a player's understanding of the rules solely for the purpose of being able to "honestly" say that he wasn't aware that he had made a mistake.  This could actually encourage a less than honorable person to treat the Rules of Golf just as an NFL player treats the rules in his game - i.e. doing everything possible to try and get away with pushing the envelope of the rules as far as possible, as long as there is nobody there to directly catch him at it. 

I'm not saying it will happen, but it opens a door that I would prefer stayed locked.

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Actually I feel that it very well could be about honesty and integrity.  A player deliberately makes no effort to gain a player's understanding of the rules solely for the purpose of being able to "honestly" say that he wasn't aware that he had made a mistake.  This could actually encourage a less than honorable person to treat the Rules of Golf just as an NFL player treats the rules in his game - i.e. doing everything possible to try and get away with pushing the envelope of the rules as far as possible, as long as there is nobody there to directly catch him at it. 

I'm not saying it will happen, but it opens a door that I would prefer stayed locked.

True.

I think you know I meant it in the more common sense where I wasn't impugning the actual integrity of current pros who make a mistake – even if the mistake is not knowing the rules, which they SHOULD, but MORALLY aren't obligated to do…

[cutchemist42]

44 minutes ago, mdl said:

I'm of two minds on this one.  I get that golf isn't like other games, where it's all happening in a single place and you can have refs in place to watch "everything" that's happening.  So perhaps some kind of distributed officiating like can happen now is a good idea.  But the backwards looking officiating also seems like bullshit to me.  I agree that Lexi broke the rules.  She moved that ball more than you can under the rules.  But getting a delayed penalty, the next day, seems like BS to me, regardless of whether it comes from someone calling it in or from rules officials reviewing footage at the end of the day or whatever.

IMO, at the least, when a round is over, you shouldn't be able to get retroactive penalties on it.  Imagine if an official was allowed to review film after an NFL game, decide after the fact that there was a personal foul facemask penalty on the kicking team on a game winning field goal, and delete the points and award the game to the other team, or call it a draw or something.

Just a thought-out loud, but the NHL will never take away a play/goal/win after the game....but they do have no problem finding/suspending/embarrasing players for stuff that they review after a game, that the ref missed in real-time.

Could you ever create a fine/suspension big enough that a player would avoid the financial hit or embarrassment of being a known cheater, or at least not knowing the rules of your own sport correctly?

[GolfLug]

24 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Actually I feel that it very well could be about honesty and integrity.  A player deliberately makes no effort to gain a player's understanding of the rules solely for the purpose of being able to "honestly" say that he wasn't aware that he had made a mistake.  This could actually encourage a less than honorable person to treat the Rules of Golf just as an NFL player treats the rules in his game - i.e. doing everything possible to try and get away with pushing the envelope of the rules as far as possible, as long as there is nobody there to directly catch him at it. 

I'm not saying it will happen, but it opens a door that I would prefer stayed locked.

It will happen. Golfers are not a superior race compared to other sporting population.

[mvmac]

 

[Ty_Webb]

3 hours ago, mvmac said:

 

It is probably best I don’t share too much of my opinion of this. Suffice it to say this doesn’t make me feel better about her and what happened.