How good does a Touring Pro need to be?

[upndown21]

14 hours ago, GrandStranded said:

OMG. What does he shoot to be a +7? Wouldn't that have to be a seriously tough course for him to get that low?

Bubba plays off a +7.7 at Isleworth. If he played majority of his rounds there I assume he would be much lower.

[iacas]

3 hours ago, upndown21 said:

Bubba plays off a +7.7 at Isleworth. If he played majority of his rounds there I assume he would be much lower.

I don't think he'd be "much" lower. The hole is only ever gonna be 4.25" in diameter.

But maybe you're one of those "pros would all shoot like 58 at my home course." Scores get exponentially more difficult. It's not linear.

[allenc]

19 hours ago, GrandStranded said:

OMG. What does he shoot to be a +7? Wouldn't that have to be a seriously tough course for him to get that low?

I only know of him, don't know him personally.  I understand he's not long off the tee and you don't need to be for his home course.  He's might be nearly as good as the tour pros there but not at bombers' courses.

[upndown21]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

I don't think he'd be "much" lower. The hole is only ever gonna be 4.25" in diameter.

But maybe you're one of those "pros would all shoot like 58 at my home course." Scores get exponentially more difficult. It's not linear.

Okay, not much lower but if you play the same course over and over you eventually learn to score better. 

On a side note I have played with Bubba at my home course and he shot a 64. It was pretty impressive to see and he thought he left at least 3 shots out there.

[MuniGrit]

I've watched Tom Bryum shoot 65 at the Desert Mountain Cochise first time playing it like it was nothing. 

Edited April 8, 2018 by MuniGrit

[Shorty]

On 07/04/2018 at 9:18 AM, allenc said:

I voted 1 - 3 just because I read that Ian Poulter was somewhere around there when he turned pro.

Gawd...... please stop bringing this up.

In the UK you need  to play in competition to have your scores counting for handicap purchases. His head pro wanted to charge him green fees so he didn't play much in competitions. And if you saw Poulter play last week you'd know that he ain't playin' off  3. 

You'd barely make a cut on the web.com tour if you were playing par  golf.

23 hours ago, GrandStranded said:

OMG. What does he shoot to be a +7? Wouldn't that have to be a seriously tough course for him to get that low?

66 or 67 half the time in his sleep would do it. These guys aren't shooting over par on those courses. (hardly) Ever.

http://www.golf.com/photos/handicaps-pga-tour-pros   (from 2014)

 

https://www.golfchannel.com/video/feherty-foursome-ian-poulter-turned-pro-4-handicap/

Edited April 8, 2018 by Shorty

[David in FL]

I have a buddy who used to play off +2, and gave the southern mini tours a serious try a few years ago. 

 He couldn't make a consistent check.

[cutchemist42]

Dumb question maybe, but are there many PGA rounds that play on rated tees that any other person could play once the tourney leaves?

I voted 5.0, based on reading past opinions about this.

On 4/6/2018 at 7:26 PM, JuanTheGolfer said:

I remember Mark Long, who caddied for Fred Funk was doing an interview about "how good do you have to be"   He stated that if you can remember the number of times you shot 65 or less from the tips at a tough course, you were not even good enough to think about it!!   These guys are REALLY good.

When I was growing up, I had the opportunity to regularly play with a couple of friends.  They were both about 6'1" or 6'2" and could hit the ball a mile, putt lights out, chip and pitch like mad men, hit beautiful pin seeking long irons, ... they were in a league of their own.  Both got golf scholarships -- one to  Georgia and the other to FSU.   Then one of them played on the PGA Tour and won the Texas Valero Open.  We were only 14-15 at the time, and I knew that I was never going to make a living playing golf  

Today, I have a friend in his early 20s who can drive it over 300 yards with ease, shoots 63-64 regularly from the tips and has not made it past the first stage of Q school in three tries, and even tried the Q school for the Asian Tour and did not make it past the first stage.

When they say, "these guys are good"... all I can say, is "seriously good"

Hmmm? Your friend to me sounds like someone who should crack that level? Wouldnt his HI be in the +5 range?

You meant qschool for the Web or McKenzie?

Edited April 10, 2018 by cutchemist42

[Buckeyebowman]

I voted +3 to +5. There's a local guy, Jason Kokrak, who hasn't come close to winning anything on the Tour. Yet, he won about 1.3 Million last year and retained his card with ease.

I'm not saying the Tour is easy, keeping the card is a struggle for lots of guys. But, if you can play fairly well, and finish middle of the field most of the time, you can make a damn nice living!

[Shorty]

On 07/04/2018 at 10:15 AM, MuniGrit said:

You could win US Open every few years.

You wouldn't because your previous even par scores wouldn't get you within  a mile of playing in a US Open. And if all you were doing was shooting 72 every round you would aren't shooting 77 in U.S. Open conditions.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Shorty

[RussUK]

I suppose it depends on your definition of what constitues "making a living".

If its the equivalent of say £25k a year salary then +3 or so but if its in the £100k's or higher then it has to be at least +5

I've read articles of journeyman golfers making a living playing on the minor tours and giving lessons in between with higher handicaps than +4 or +5. But im not sure if these guys would last long on the main tours for long, if there able to get their card in the fist place.

On that basis i've gone with a "PGA Tour" living so voted +5 or better.

[lastings]

guys, My home course [Chaska Town Course] is 6,800 yds from the tips and has a rating of 73.4 (par 72).   This course is not that difficult.   It's just down the street from Hazeltine, and every time I've played Hazeltine it has absolutely destroyed me. This course does not.      So...   a scratch golfer is expected to shoot 73 like 1 out of 4 times.   Pros would rip this course to shreds.   mid-high 60's every time out.   every time. 

my guess is that if scratch is shooting 73 1 out of 4 here, then bottom level tour players have at least 5 strokes on scratch.    probably more.     get this scratch nonsense out of here.  

[lastings]

and..  on the topic of Hazeltine.   The tournament card there has a rating of 78.0.   Lets just say that averaging par is the goal.   if you average 72 over the course of 20 rounds, dispersed evenly among a 5 stroke range you have 70,71,72,73,and 74, four times each.   Your average is 72.   but, to get your handicap, average your 10 best of you last 20.    70, 70,70,70,71,71,71,71,72,72.   your average is 70.8.  on a course rated 78.   your handicap is +7.2.    just to average par.   

And, sure..   Hazeltine is one of the tougher courses played on tour at a 78.0 rating, but most are rated 76.   and few of them are par 72s.   so, shave that scoring average down by a couple on par 70s.  

Edited April 13, 2018 by lastings

[Ty_Webb]

41 minutes ago, lastings said:

and..  on the topic of Hazeltine.   The tournament card there has a rating of 78.0.   Lets just say that averaging par is the goal.   if you average 72 over the course of 20 rounds, dispersed evenly among a 5 stroke range you have 70,71,72,73,and 74, four times each.   Your average is 72.   but, to get your handicap, average your 10 best of you last 20.    70, 70,70,70,71,71,71,71,72,72.   your average is 70.8.  on a course rated 78.   your handicap is +7.2.    just to average par.   

And, sure..   Hazeltine is one of the tougher courses played on tour at a 78.0 rating, but most are rated 76.   and few of them are par 72s.   so, shave that scoring average down by a couple on par 70s.  

You're missing the slope, which would tend to pull that index down. 

That said, the world has quite a few +4 players who can't make a cut on the mini tours. Out on the PGA tour, you need to be capable of shooting 63 on a course that's rated 76+. That doesn't add up to worse than +5 IMO. So I went with +5 or better. 

There are some +4s out there who will make it on tour, but they won't be +4 anymore once they get to that point. The guys making a living on the PGA tour are better than you can imagine. 

[lastings]

55 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

You're missing the slope, which would tend to pull that index down. 

 

I thought slope no longer factored in once you are scratch or better?  maybe i have that wrong. 

[Ty_Webb]

Just now, lastings said:

I thought slope no longer factored in once you are scratch or better?  maybe i have that wrong. 

No it still matters. 70 against a 78/145 course would be -8 x 113/145 = -6.2 differential. 10 of those with the 0.96 multiplier would give you a handicap index of +6.0. When you go play that course, you multiply your index by the slope over 113 to give you your course handicap (+6.0 x 145/113 = +8). Then if you shoot 70 again you played to your handicap. 

If you go play a course that is rated 78/113, you'd be +6 and be expected to shoot 72. It's worth noting that a course that is rated 78/113 is probably very long indeed. Much longer than the 78/145 course, but would have a lot less trouble around. 

[NM Golf]

I've said this before, but I used to play a lot of golf with TOUR players. Some were pretty good (Notah Begay) some were more journeyman guys like Brian Kortan, DJ Brigman, Wil Collins and Kent Jones (now on the Champions Tour). When they got hot they would shoot 10 under, if they were not striking it as well they would shoot 67-70. This is on a course rated 73.1 7200 yards. They were so consistent, their ballstriking was unbelievable. I was around a 2-3 handicap at the time and they smoked me, it wasn't even close. As a +1 I am not in the ballpark with those guys. 

[Ty_Webb]

7 minutes ago, NM Golf said:

I've said this before, but I used to play a lot of golf with TOUR players. Some were pretty good (Notah Begay) some were more journeyman guys like Brian Kortan, DJ Brigman, Wil Collins and Kent Jones (now on the Champions Tour). When they got hot they would shoot 10 under, if they were not striking it as well they would shoot 67-70. This is on a course rated 73.1 7200 yards. They were so consistent, their ballstriking was unbelievable. I was around a 2-3 handicap at the time and they smoked me, it wasn't even close. As a +1 I am not in the ballpark with those guys. 

Yep - there are +3s around me who are having to qualify to get into local Met area amateur tournaments.