Losing the (U.S. Open) Course vs. Courses We Play

[millsan1]

I am new to the sport, so please excuse me if this questions is out of bounds.  I believe it belongs in this forum.

Like many, I watched the US Open.  Caught a lot of Thur and Friday and all Saturday and Sunday.

As we all know, some players and fans, etc were complaining about course conditions on Saturday being too hard and Sunday being too easy.

My question is a simple one.  Why do the pros, who make a very comfortable living playing a game, deserve to have extra special perfect conditions to play the game?

When any of us go out and play a round, or a league or a tournament, we expect that we will have to play the course as it is in front of us.  I assume the vast majority of us are playing for fun, a couple bucks and a little prestige at best.

I have a little BS 9 hole course by me that I love to play.  One of the greens is horrible.  Hole always uphill, in the corner, with a serious downhill slope.  If you miss by more than 6", the ball is going to run at least 20 feet away.  And you know what?  I play the hole.  It is what it is.

Edited June 20, 2018 by millsan1

[Jeremie Boop]

There's a big difference between playing the course as it's set up on an everyday round, and when the USGA changes the course to increase difficulty for the players. Sometimes they go overboard, like they did on Saturday. There shouldn't even be a debate about that as they admitted the course got away from them and they regretted at least one pin position.

[Patch]

They are professional golfers with egos. They don't want to look bad, and a poor showing, playing in a tough tournament, is something they can't mentally handle.

They are spoiled by playing in easier tournaments on a weekly basis. 

For me, I love the way the tough USO tournaments are set up. The professional don't deserve playing on easy set ups for majors. They are majors. A birdyfest set up only defines the best golfers that week. A tough set up brings out those skills from a life time of learning. 

[klineka]

2 hours ago, millsan1 said:

My question is a simple one.  Why do the pros, who make a very comfortable living playing a game, deserve to have extra special perfect conditions to play the game?

I think that the question you asked and the topic you are alluding to are very different. 

To answer the question you asked, the reason pros play on courses that are typically extra special and are in perfect shape most of the time is because those courses have the money to pay the grounds crews that it takes to maintain and keep the courses in near perfect shape. Courses that you and I play at, dont have the money for that. Pretty simple really.

I'm not sure what "Who make a very comfortable living playing a game" has to do with it. Are you trying to say that because they make so much money playing golf that the courses they play on shouldnt be perfect? That seems like lousy logic IMO.

 

Now to talk about the topic that you alluded to, losing the course, the course being unplayable etc. Like @Jeremie Boop said, there really isnt a debate here. the USGA admitted the course got away from them.

3 hours ago, millsan1 said:

When any of us go out and play a round, or a league or a tournament, we expect that we will have to play the course as it is in front of us. 

The pros expect that they will have to play the course as it is in front of them too, but the big difference is when you or I complain about the course condition, it might only be to our buddies or maybe a worker at the course. When a professional player complains about the course condition, the audience is significantly larger.

 

3 hours ago, millsan1 said:

I assume the vast majority of us are playing for fun, a couple bucks and a little prestige at best.

 And you know what?  I play the hole.  It is what it is.

If you were playing for hundreds of dollars (potentially millions) every week you would be upset if you hit a good putt that missed by 6" but rolled to 20 feet away potentially costing you hundreds of thousands of dollars. Its a lot easier to say "it is what it is" when $5 or even $50 is on the line, but I would imagine it gets quite a bit tougher to say that when those extra two putts could mean the difference between 1st and 3rd which was $1.4 million difference in prize money. Or if that happened once on two different rounds in the tournament costing you 4 strokes total which would have been $1.8 million difference in prize money. 

[lastings]

1 hour ago, Jeremie Boop said:

There's a big difference between playing the course as it's set up on an everyday round, and when the USGA changes the course to increase difficulty for the players. Sometimes they go overboard, like they did on Saturday. There shouldn't even be a debate about that as they admitted the course got away from them and they regretted at least one pin position.

Nope.  The only mistake the USGA made was apologizing.   The point of a difficult course is to weed out those that aren't mentally strong enough and skilled enough to handle difficult shot after difficult shot all day long. 
If the course is as intended above, the cream of the crop should naturally rise to the top.  

if it is so difficult that it is "unfair", then everyone will eventually blow up and it will come down to luck.

Koepka, Fleetwood, DJ, Reed, Finau, Berger, Hatton, Stenson, Schauffle, Rose  - which of the above choices does this leader-board suggest was the answer? 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2018 by lastings

[Jeremie Boop]

5 minutes ago, lastings said:

Nope.  The only mistake the USGA made was apologizing.   The point of a difficult course is to weed out those that aren't mentally strong enough and skilled enough to handle difficult shot after difficult shot all day long. 
If the course is as intended above, the cream of the crop should naturally rise to the top.  

if it is so difficult that it is "unfair", then everyone will eventually blow up and it will come down to luck.

Koepka, Fleetwood, DJ, Reed, Finau, Berger, Hatton, Stenson, Schauffle, Rose  - which of the above choices does this leader-board suggest was the answer? 

 

 

There's difference between a difficult course and what happened on Saturday. That's not to say people can't still shoot a good round under those conditions, but it also doesn't mean that the conditions didn't get out of hand. Also, it wasn't so much that the initial setup of the course was horrible, but that as the day went on things changed and things got bad. It's fine if you disagree with them and me. But, they make the call on how the course is set up and if they deemed it out of hand then that's what it was.

[lastings]

10 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

There's difference between a difficult course and what happened on Saturday. That's not to say people can't still shoot a good round under those conditions, but it also doesn't mean that the conditions didn't get out of hand. Also, it wasn't so much that the initial setup of the course was horrible, but that as the day went on things changed and things got bad. It's fine if you disagree with them and me. But, they make the call on how the course is set up and if they deemed it out of hand then that's what it was.

They deemed it out of hand, because players whined and complained.   and the USGA  likes to apologize and justify things, now.   Last year at Erin Hills, players complained it was not a true test as a US Open should be.   The USGA agreed and justified by saying the wind just didn't blow at a course where the wind always blows.    I didn't hear any complaints from Brooks Koepka.   Guess what, it's Erin Hills. we've never seen this venue before, it may be unpredictable. This year they had a couple tough pins and it baked out on Saturday.  Now it's too hard and the course is "unfair".   Guess what, It's Shinnecock Hills!  We've seen the course for 100 years.  We know what's going to happen!   get your ass out there, scout the danger areas, know how difficult they will be if it bakes out, figure out what the safest play is and play it.   Again, I didn't hear any complaints from Koepka. 

Edited June 20, 2018 by lastings

[Jeremie Boop]

2 minutes ago, lastings said:

They deemed it out of hand, because players whined and complained.   and the USGA  likes to apologize and justify things, now.   Last year at Erin Hills, players complained it was not a true test as a US Open should be.   The USGA agreed and justified by saying the wind just didn't blow at a course where the wind always blows.    I didn't hear any complaints from Brooks Koepka.   Guess what, it's Erin Hills. we've never seen this venue before, it may be unpredictable. This year they had a couple tough pins and it baked out on Saturday.  Now it's too hard and the course is "unfair".   Guess what, It's Shinnecock Hills!  We've seen the course for 100 years.  We know what's going to happen!   get your ass out there, scout the danger areas, know how difficult they will be if it bakes out, figure out what the safest play is and play it.   Again, I didn't hear any complaints from Koepka. 

Because there was no complaint from the guy who won, and some other players then no complaints were justified? It's fine if you disagree, but I agree with their assessment that it got away from them. They had a plan for how they wanted the holes to play and some got harder than they expected/anticipated. There's nothing wrong with them admitting it.

[lastings]

Just now, Jeremie Boop said:

Because there was no complaint from the guy who won, and some other players then no complaints were justified? It's fine if you disagree, but I agree with their assessment that it got away from them. They had a plan for how they wanted the holes to play and some got harder than they expected/anticipated. There's nothing wrong with them admitting it.

We play outdoors, in unpredictable weather.  The USGA caving to the whiney Ian Poulters of the world, is unprofessional and laughable.    It's not that I agree or disagree with their assessment.    It's that I don't think their should be an assessment at all.    The USGA sets up the course the way they see fit for the tournament.   The weather does to their set up whatever the weather is going to do to their set up.   The players play it as it lies.   Players need to stop whining and claiming unfairness.   

Saying that is was really difficult is totally fine.   "Man, it sure was tough out there.  We had a hell of a time with that course", totally fine and acceptable response.    "This course was too difficult and it was unfair, we deserve an apology from the USGA!"   not acceptable.   You are a professional.   playing the same course as other professionals.   At a tournament that is intentionally deemed 'The Toughest test in golf'.   Grow up, take your paycheck, go home, and don't bother registering for the US Open next year.   no one is forcing you to play in a tournament that is too hard.    

[saevel25]

3 hours ago, millsan1 said:

My question is a simple one.  Why do the pros, who make a very comfortable living playing a game, deserve to have extra special perfect conditions to play the game?

The courses want to set up the course to look as nice as possible since its advertisement for private courses and public courses. Also, it looks nicer on TV. No one wants to see Rae's creek look brown like it did back when Jack played. They dye water blue to make it look pristine. Honestly, actually going to the Masters. It's like looking at a perfect painting. There is something awesome about that.

I don't mind the USGA wanting to push a course to it's limit. I do think they could back it down a bit so they are not going to have the greens burn out. There is no win here for the USGA. Why should they care about the opinions of the fans then?

 

[Jeremie Boop]

2 minutes ago, lastings said:

We play outdoors, in unpredictable weather.  The USGA caving to the whiney Ian Poulters of the world, is unprofessional and laughable.    It's not that I agree or disagree with their assessment.    It's that I don't think their should be an assessment at all.    The USGA sets up the course the way they see fit for the tournament.   The weather does to their set up whatever the weather is going to do to their set up.   The players play it as it lies.   Players need to stop whining and claiming unfairness.   

Saying that is was really difficult is totally fine.   "Man, it sure was tough out there.  We had a hell of a time with that course", totally fine and acceptable response.    "This course was too difficult and it was unfair, we deserve an apology from the USGA!"   not acceptable.   You are a professional.   playing the same course as other professionals.   At a tournament that is intentionally deemed 'The Toughest test in golf'.   Grow up, take your paycheck, go home, and don't bother registering for the US Open next year.   no one is forcing you to play in a tournament that is too hard.    

Again, there's a difference between "unpredictable weather" and intentionally watering the greens less to firm them up only to realize later that they dried up more than anticipated. Nobody complains that it was unfair when the morning group had a nice calm day and then the afternoon deals with winds and some rain. People consider that unlucky. Nobody can control the weather, but when the course is set up on the edge and then tips past that edge, that's a bit of a different story. I don't think it was unprofessional or laughable that they admitted that the course got away from them or that, in hindsight, a pin placement wasn't good. I don't really understand your basis for that. If someone makes a mistake that affects others, then admitting that is far from laughable or unprofessional.

 

[Jack Watson]

The only problem happens when the setup issues create a tournament in which luck factors as much as skill in the results.

[Big C]

7 minutes ago, lastings said:

We play outdoors, in unpredictable weather.  The USGA caving to the whiney Ian Poulters of the world, is unprofessional and laughable.    It's not that I agree or disagree with their assessment.    It's that I don't think their should be an assessment at all.    The USGA sets up the course the way they see fit for the tournament.   The weather does to their set up whatever the weather is going to do to their set up.   The players play it as it lies.   Players need to stop whining and claiming unfairness.   

Saying that is was really difficult is totally fine.   "Man, it sure was tough out there.  We had a hell of a time with that course", totally fine and acceptable response.    "This course was too difficult and it was unfair, we deserve an apology from the USGA!"   not acceptable.   You are a professional.   playing the same course as other professionals.   At a tournament that is intentionally deemed 'The Toughest test in golf'.   Grow up, take your paycheck, go home, and don't bother registering for the US Open next year.   no one is forcing you to play in a tournament that is too hard.    

It's not just about the players. As a fan and a viewer, I want to see a course that fairly rewards the best players. And if the USGA pushes the set up of their course too far, they run the risk of tilting the balance more heavily towards fate and fortune at the expense of good solid golf. No one has a vested interest in that. 

I'm not saying that happened in a meaningful way here. Really we are just talking about one day and a few pin positions. I think Brooks Koepka was a deserving winner. 

But to imply (as you seem to above) that there is no room for discussion or conversation about this, is simply wrong-headed, in my opinion.

[ScouseJohnny]

"Losing the course" is an asinine phrase in this context. It's basically saying that the competition has been reduced to a crapshoot. The course (+ conditions) are so extreme that they are unable to provide a meaningful test of golf and what remains of the competition is, in essence, a lottery.

Only that didn't happen, did it? Koepka didn't win through blind luck. Fleetwood didn't shoot a 63 through blind luck.

It's a bit dismal, all this whining. Not every tournament needs a winning score of -18 to vindicate the talent of its field.

Edited June 20, 2018 by ScouseJohnny

[ChrisP]

The course was fine on Saturday. If you follow the Us Open, players love complaining on tough layouts. Thats just the way they are. But they definitely didn’t lose it. What they did do was screw up 2 or 3 pin positions. If they would have put the pins on 12, 15 and 18 where they put them on Sunday, the course would have been a completely firm, but fair, test on Saturday. It was just two or three pins, that’s it.

Edited June 20, 2018 by ChrisP

[lastings]

23 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

I don't think it was unprofessional or laughable that they admitted that the course got away from them or that, in hindsight, a pin placement wasn't good. I don't really understand your basis for that. If someone makes a mistake that affects others, then admitting that is far from laughable or unprofessional.

At the US Open, the course absolutely should be set up on the edge.  Weather may help to tip it over the edge.   That does not mean it was set up wrong or unfair.   They will never be able to have it play exactly the way they want it to play.  To many outside factors come in to play.  But, for one tournament a year, they surely can error on the side of too difficult.  And the players can accept it for what it is.   The USGA didn't come out unprovoked and say it was too difficult.   They responded to unprofessional players whining and demanding an apology.  

 

20 minutes ago, Big C said:

But to imply (as you seem to above) that there is no room for discussion or conversation about this, is simply wrong-headed, in my opinion.

The was not a tournament that was tilted towards fate and fortune.  The players that played the best golf absolutely rose to the top here. 

 

20 minutes ago, Big C said:

But to imply (as you seem to above) that there is no room for discussion or conversation about this, is simply wrong-headed, in my opinion.

There may be room for discussion, but it absolutely should not be in the form of players blaming the USGA and demanding an apology.   The media is free to commentate.   Maybe the USGA could reflect a couple weeks later and say "we loved the way the course played all weekend, but Saturday got a bit tougher than we wished"   Maybe the players can say something behind closed doors to the USGA.   But, the players running to the media to have a public cry-fest about it is unprofessional.   and the USGA caving to the players through the media is unprofessional.   

Edited June 20, 2018 by lastings

[fishgolf]

18 hours ago, lastings said:

They deemed it out of hand, because players whined and complained.   and the USGA  likes to apologize and justify things, now.   Last year at Erin Hills, players complained it was not a true test as a US Open should be.   The USGA agreed and justified by saying the wind just didn't blow at a course where the wind always blows.    I didn't hear any complaints from Brooks Koepka.   Guess what, it's Erin Hills. we've never seen this venue before, it may be unpredictable. This year they had a couple tough pins and it baked out on Saturday.  Now it's too hard and the course is "unfair".   Guess what, It's Shinnecock Hills!  We've seen the course for 100 years.  We know what's going to happen!   get your ass out there, scout the danger areas, know how difficult they will be if it bakes out, figure out what the safest play is and play it.   Again, I didn't hear any complaints from Koepka. 

Good points. They bitched about Chambers Bay and the greens as well.  It seems any course conditions that challenge their ability beyond their standards draws ire - particularly from those who aren't at the top of the leaderboard.

[chilepepper]

For the most part the courses the pros play are private or , if public, I would not pay the rates they charge. To xtend this those courses have huge maintenance budgets and have the money and staff to keep those courses in tip top condition. As far as green speed , tournament speeds are pretty impractical to maintain on a long term basis