Cheating in Tournament

[mcanadiens]

3 minutes ago, Elmer said:

That would shave 2-3 putt per hole off my score, I would be nearly a scratch golfer!

Hell. 

At that rate I may not actually hole a ball the entire day.

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, mcanadiens said:

Hell. 

At that rate I may not actually hole a ball the entire day.

I hate not getting closer the first two putts 😂

[Carl3]

On 7/12/2018 at 9:23 AM, Elmer said:

I think most of us on this forum would sell our soul for an extra inch or two!

Erik set that one up real nice.

[Fourputt]

On 7/13/2018 at 7:25 AM, millsan1 said:

Not to hijack, but I had some similar things happen to me during my league.

I am a first year player and bottom of the league, so I try to stay low key.

BUT, I do manage to play OK and score some points.  I have noticed that when I am scoring against better players, they get a bit creative with the rules.

One invented a drop zone when he totally hooked it OOB on a Par 3.

Others have taken drops where their ball would have ended up OOB instead of where it crossed.  Differences of 50+ yards in a lot of cases.

The first week, we were allowed to "fluff" balls on the fairway because of conditions.  Somehow that became OK all season long.

Some of the greens have legit repair areas, and we are allowed relief.  Some players take this to the extreme, and if where they are in the green is not perfect, they declare it "under repair"

Just for your information, if a player hits a ball out of bounds, the ONLY correct play is to play again from the same place with a penalty stroke added.  Anything else is at least a 2 stroke penalty, and in this case most likely disqualification because of a serious breach due to the significant advantage gained. 

[Elmer]

On 7/13/2018 at 5:37 PM, Carl3 said:

Erik set that one up real nice.

This is a golf forum,

He Tee'd it up!

[Carl3]

1 hour ago, Elmer said:

This is a golf forum,

He Tee'd it up!

Arrrrg, I stand corrected.

[edomingox]

I would assessed the penalty.  I don't care how mad he gets.

[Shindig]

2 hours ago, edomingox said:

I would assessed the penalty.  I don't care how mad he gets.

On what authority though?  Sure, as the marker you could write the higher number down, and when he gets to the scorer tent, he can say "no, I scored an X, not an X+1" and go through the same process that happened, and not get the penalty if they don't care / don't have evidence / don't enforce it.

[edomingox]

34 minutes ago, Shindig said:

On what authority though?  Sure, as the marker you could write the higher number down, and when he gets to the scorer tent, he can say "no, I scored an X, not an X+1" and go through the same process that happened, and not get the penalty if they don't care / don't have evidence / don't enforce it.

I'll describe what I'd do in more detail as it happens. 

If he places the marker in front of the ball, then when he goes to put the ball back, places ball in front of the marker (essentially gaining about an inch to the hole), I would let him know he is not placing the ball down correctly.  If he argues it, then I would tell him he will get a penalty for that.  I would notify the other competitor as well.  If there is no one else, then it's his word against mine.  Either way, it will get resolved by the official when we turn in our score cards.  When we turn in our score cards, I go to the director and tell him what happened. 

You have the authority to assess a penalty if you see a player do something illegal.  If I see someone move there ball on the fairway, I'll call it.  If I see someone double hit a chip shot, I'll call it.  Yeah, it may not make me a likable guy to be around, but "thems the rules".  It's there to protect the field, not just me.  I don't want some guy inching his way to the cup whenever he marks (and is in contention) if I'm the guy holding the lead.

I don't want to play in a tournament where people don't follow the rules and don't enforce penalties.  That's where the cheaters go.

[Golfingdad]

1 hour ago, edomingox said:

I'll describe what I'd do in more detail as it happens. 

If he places the marker in front of the ball, then when he goes to put the ball back, places ball in front of the marker (essentially gaining about an inch to the hole), I would let him know he is not placing the ball down correctly.  If he argues it, then I would tell him he will get a penalty for that.  I would notify the other competitor as well.  If there is no one else, then it's his word against mine.  Either way, it will get resolved by the official when we turn in our score cards.  When we turn in our score cards, I go to the director and tell him what happened. 

You have the authority to assess a penalty if you see a player do something illegal.  If I see someone move there ball on the fairway, I'll call it.  If I see someone double hit a chip shot, I'll call it.  Yeah, it may not make me a likable guy to be around, but "thems the rules".  It's there to protect the field, not just me.  I don't want some guy inching his way to the cup whenever he marks (and is in contention) if I'm the guy holding the lead.

I don't want to play in a tournament where people don't follow the rules and don't enforce penalties.  That's where the cheaters go.

I have no problem with this ... except I believe you are incorrect in regards to the bolded comment.  And you gave the main reason why in your first paragraph when you said , "it's his word against mine,"  This is exactly what @Shindig is asking/pointing out, I believe.  You have the authority to point it out to him that he has committed an infraction, but if nobody else sees it and he is adamant that he did not commit the infraction, then you don't have the authority to assess the penalty.

Without any other information, I believe that a "he said/he" said situation is always going to fall on the side of the player.

[Shindig]

9 hours ago, Golfingdad said:

I have no problem with this ... except I believe you are incorrect in regards to the bolded comment.  And you gave the main reason why in your first paragraph when you said , "it's his word against mine,"  This is exactly what @Shindig is asking/pointing out, I believe.  You have the authority to point it out to him that he has committed an infraction, but if nobody else sees it and he is adamant that he did not commit the infraction, then you don't have the authority to assess the penalty.

Without any other information, I believe that a "he said/he" said situation is always going to fall on the side of the player.

Correct, thanks.  And I applaud @edomingox for being willing to put in a ton of effort to protect the field -- that's commendable.  It's just that it might not stick come the scorer's tent. 

[millsan1]

On 7/13/2018 at 9:25 AM, millsan1 said:

Not to hijack, but I had some similar things happen to me during my league.

I am a first year player and bottom of the league, so I try to stay low key.

BUT, I do manage to play OK and score some points.  I have noticed that when I am scoring against better players, they get a bit creative with the rules.

One invented a drop zone when he totally hooked it OOB on a Par 3.

Others have taken drops where their ball would have ended up OOB instead of where it crossed.  Differences of 50+ yards in a lot of cases.

The first week, we were allowed to "fluff" balls on the fairway because of conditions.  Somehow that became OK all season long.

Some of the greens have legit repair areas, and we are allowed relief.  Some players take this to the extreme, and if where they are in the green is not perfect, they declare it "under repair"

 

LOL.  I guess I am getting better because the rule bending is getting more creative.

As I said, I came in last the prvious league.  I have improved my game and last night was the first night of the new league, same guys, basically.

"That ball is in an unplayable lie"  I said, OK, but that is a stroke penalty to move it.  "You sure?"  Yep.

"My ball is right near that hole in the rough"  Yep it is NEAR it.  It isn't in it.

Tees up forward of the tee box.  Me: "Thanks for the hole.  Teeing up outside of the tee box is loss of hole in match play"  I didn't stick to that, I just did it to needle him.

"We can fluff on the fairway"  Nope, that was a rule from last league for week one.

Lost 5-4 because I failed to execute on two holes.

Edited August 2, 2018 by millsan1

[DrMJG]

I enforce the rules against myself whenever I play. Otherwise, I really cannot asses whether or not I had a good day or a bad day.  Getting better at the game of golf means gaining in every aspect of the game. (BTW, I officiated sports for 30 years.  I have a lot of experience explaining rules to those who do not know, or care, what they did! 😎)

[HonestyPolicy]

This might have already been said. I wasn't going to read all 66 posts. In fact I'm sure it was. But I'll add my belief that as competitors it is our responsibility to protect the field. That means that if we see a rules infraction, we must call it on the other person if that person chooses not to call it on himself. This for many people is easier said than done because of no one is sure how the person being called will react. No one wants to have to "call" someone on a rule on hole #1 and then have to play 17 more holes with him, it's no fun.

If the kid didn't know, which I doubt, then he should have gotten penalized and likely doesn't finish 2nd. He learns a tough lesson and the next tournament he is marking the ball correctly. If he doesn't get penalized, he doesn't learn anything and he eventually will get called on it in a following tournament. I mean come on, what is a 2 handicap even need to do with a few inches of cheating to increase the chances of making the putt. It's ridiculous.

Also what is ridiculous is the tournament directors lack of guts. As a tournament director it is your responsibility to conduct a fair and accurate tournament. Refusing to even question the kid is not fulfilling your responsibilities.

Sadly, this is not a unique situation, I've heard things like this many times. I'm very concerned for what has happened to our gentleman's game.

[Sean_D]

So two penalties are applicable in this situation, both general (two-stroke) penalties. 

20-3. Placing and Replacing

a. By Whom and Where

A ball to be placed under the Rules must be placed by the player or his partner.

If a ball to be replaced is placed other than on the spot from which it was lifted or moved and the error is not corrected as provided in Rule 20-6, the player incurs the general penalty, loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play, for a breach of the applicable Rule.

 

20-7. Playing from Wrong Place

a. General

A player has played from a wrong place if he makes a stroke at his ball in play:

(i)

on a part of the course where the Rules do not permit a stroke to be made or a ball to be dropped or placed; or

(ii)

when the Rules require a dropped ball to be re-dropped or a moved ball to be replaced.

Note: For a ball played from outside the teeing ground or from a wrong teeing ground - see Rule 11-4.

b. Match Play

If a player makes a stroke from a wrong place, he loses the hole.

c. Stroke Play

If a competitor makes a stroke from a wrong place, he incurs a penalty of two strokes under the applicable Rule. He must play out the hole with the ball played from the wrong place, without correcting his error, provided he has not committed a serious breach (see Note 1).

 

From what I have read (and I am just learning the rules), should the correct penalties assessed be four strokes as I interpret two separate infractions in the described scenario. I have read of situations where if one penalty is assessed, other penalties are not compounded. Is that the case here? Or should four strokes have been added to his score for each breach of the rules?

[Rulesman]

16 minutes ago, Sean_D said:

From what I have read (and I am just learning the rules), should the correct penalties assessed be four strokes as I interpret two separate infractions in the described scenario. I have read of situations where if one penalty is assessed, other penalties are not compounded. Is that the case here? Or should four strokes have been added to his score for each breach of the rules?

Have a look at this decision.

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-01,d1-4-12

 

[Sean_D]

3 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

Have a look at this decision.

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-01,d1-4-12

 

Thank You. So a two stroke penalty for each infringement. 

[BallMarker]

I personally feel it is our duty to report "improper" play in a tournament.

In non-tournament, I don't care that much.

On 7/11/2018 at 9:41 PM, iacas said:

BTW I love how people will sell out their souls and reputations for an inch or two. C'mon…

Well, they'll say something like, "It's only a couple of inches. Why does it bother you?".