Is a Lower Body Swing Key Essential

[JonMA1]

21 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

I didn’t say impossible, I said most likely not true. And that by far is the case. Someone who shoots 90 is very more likely to be raking up strokes from the long game. It’s not common that someone fires a 90 because they continued to make bogey/double bogey despite hitting a high GIR % or nGIR %. 

Practicing the long game should be disproportionate as it is that much harder. Again it’s possible but it certainly isn’t common that a player can hit fairways and greens in high percentages yet still make bogey/dB on almost every hole. 

I agree 100% for the group of players who don’t explicitly state they work harder on it and become successful at making it their strength (relative to the rest of their game). Once that claim is made, it doesn’t make sense (for me anyway) to disagree or suggest they don’t understand a strength in their own game.

Not a big deal if others choose to doubt it.

[phillyk]

40 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

 Once that claim is made, it doesn’t make sense (for me anyway) to disagree or suggest they don’t understand a strength in their own game.

Not a big deal if others choose to doubt it.

I played with a guy a couple years ago and prior to the round stated his strength was short game.  Turned out his strength was only that because of the people he regularly played with.  He rarely got up and down but because it was better than his buddies, he always thought it was good.  He didn't think that anymore after our round.

You can state a strength but if your only comparison is against buddies who you are already better than, it's hard to know how that strength actually stacks up against everyone else.  I would assume @hespeler knows his strengths because he's been taking lessons.

Back to topic, I think a lot of people, when beginning to try and start the downswing with the lower body, exaggerate how much of a "bump" they need at the top of the swing to get the hips started.  It is actually a small amount that you need, but it's usually enough to complete that hip turn by impact.  The thing is that the hips move slower than the arms, so by starting the lower body slightly earlier, they can release with the arms, instead of the arms passing the hip turn right away.

[Vinsk]

1 hour ago, phillyk said:

The thing is that the hips move slower than the arms, so by starting the lower body slightly earlier, they can release with the arms, instead of the arms passing the hip turn right away.

True but the hips also travel a much shorter distance than the arms. That’s the problem with getting them synced, at least for me. 

[hespeler]

4 hours ago, Vinsk said:

I didn’t say impossible, I said most likely not true. And that by far is the case. Someone who shoots 90 is very more likely to be raking up strokes from the long game. It’s not common that someone fires a 90 because they continued to make bogey/double bogey despite hitting a high GIR % or nGIR %. 

Practicing the long game should be disproportionate as it is that much harder. Again it’s possible but it certainly isn’t common that a player can hit fairways and greens in high percentages yet still make bogey/dB on almost every hole. 

I’ve been hitting 8 or 9 GIR’s.  Maybe 50% fairways.  Have really good distance on all clubs.  I simply can’t close out holes.  I have a lot of par putts that turn in to bogey or double.

When I miss a green, it’s often because I didn’t do a good job picking the right club and overshot the green leading to a lost ball or awkward pitch.  Another 6 or maybe 7.

Do I hit really bad shots?  Definitely.  I can spray the driver into the next fairway maybe once a round and similar shots that lead to blow up holes.

But I can string together 4 or 5 holes with every shot being a good one...and maybe walk away with one par.

I’ll miss a 4 footer to save par or bogey once or twice a round.

I’m not there yet but I’ve come a long way and the full swing is not what’s really keeping me from going lower.   It puts me in position to score a lot, I just can’t...score.

I can stand on the practice green and drain putts and lag ‘em close, hit chips to a few feet but I can’t do it in a round.  Much like you can stripe ‘em on the range but shank ‘em on the course.

Between the net at my house, the range and lessons, I hit a ton of balls. Almost every day.  Pro I take lessons with says high 80’s should be a bad day for me.

Golf hasn’t been much fun and even though my swing is in good shape right now I’m glad the off season is coming up.

Personally, I can’t think about the lower body too much.  From years of experimenting and taking lessons.  Yes I get quick from the top from time to time, flip the face and hook it.  I’m just a hack, not a pro.  But when my swing goes bad, from experience, trying too much with the lower body never really gets it back on track.

 

 

[MarvChamp]

Rickie Fowler is an example of beginning the downswing pushing his feet down and everything following. That's the way I was taught, but of course it did no good in my case. Best, -Marv

[Moxley]

After reading this thread, I worked on doing a lower body turn during iron shots to get more speed. Didn't hit enough shots to get a reliable sample, but I hit a few surprisingly far. Distance is one of my main weaknesses - hit a 6 iron which was meant to be a layup, and it made it 170 onto the green, a good 15 yds further than normal, without feeling I was swinging fast. 

Hoping I've uncovered something here. 

[DaveP043]

On 10/12/2018 at 8:33 PM, MarvChamp said:

Rickie Fowler is an example of beginning the downswing pushing his feet down and everything following. That's the way I was taught, but of course it did no good in my case. Best, -Marv

Is there a difference between pushing feet down and standing up by extending the legs?  In my case, my left leg extends as my hips rotate, at least that's my goal.

[MarvChamp]

26 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Is there a difference between pushing feet down and standing up by extending the legs? 

Yes. This from Golf Digest in my journal:

Pound for pound, Fowler is one of the longest hitters in golf. He gets those extra yards by pushing off the ground. "Look at that squat position in his lower body," Harmon says. "When you go from the ground up, your hands and arms naturally drop into what I call the delivery position."

[iacas]

19 minutes ago, MarvChamp said:

Yes. This from Golf Digest in my journal:

Pound for pound, Fowler is one of the longest hitters in golf. He gets those extra yards by pushing off the ground. "Look at that squat position in his lower body," Harmon says. "When you go from the ground up, your hands and arms naturally drop into what I call the delivery position."

@MarvChamp, I'm not sure I'd agree. The only way to "push" against the ground is by "extending" the knees. That's part of why the pressure shifts to the right side during the backswing (the right knee is extending), and a big part of why pressure shifts so suddenly left during the downswing - the left knee is extending fast at that point.

"Squatting" is what you do before you extend. If your right knee never regains flexion, it can't "push into the ground" because it's just fully extended already.

You can't jump in the air very high from a standing position: you have to bend your knees (and usually at the hips/waist too), which actually decreases your pressure downward into the ground, before you extend or "jump" to push against the ground.

[DrMJG]

I had great day at the DR today because part of my focus today was on hip activity.  On days when I don't get solid hits, I often feel I was not turning the hips well.  For me, I feel hip turning is important in my striking the ball well; not topping not digging under the ball.  It keeps my shoulders fairly level, arms in good position, club face and angle good.  So for me, hip rotation is the start for a swing involving the whole body.  As with the whole swing, if one part is off of its purpose, the shot is less likely to be what I thought it should.  So, in some ways my shot IS from the ground up but the motion becomes whole body a mere micro second after the hips rotate to my right side. 

With my old arthritic body and a severe foot injury, I push against nothing.  Rather I need to be solid to a foot stance and ending up solid on the right foot and on the toe on the right.  Not a fan of creating unnecessary tension.

[mvmac]

On 10/10/2018 at 4:54 PM, Sandhills Golfe said:

The question is, is a lower body swing key essential. Such as a hip bump or swing from the ground up? Cheers, SG

The lower body is very much involved in the downswing. 

Whether that's something the golfer needs to feel or be conscious of depends on the player and their tendencies. In some instances golfers can improve the dynamics of their downswing by making changes to the backswing. An efficient pivot on the backswing won't guarantee a perfect downswing but for a lot of players, the issues they see at impact/downswing originate well before it.

[MarvChamp]

12 hours ago, iacas said:

"Squatting" is what you do before you extend. If your right knee never regains flexion, it can't "push into the ground" because it's just fully extended already.

Yeah...The word "push" may just be describing a feel. If I pause in the backswing, the push/squat is ONE of the things I feel as ALL things begin to unwind for the downswing. For me, an old baseball player, it's kind of like the beginning of the step into the swing.

8 hours ago, DrMJG said:

Not a fan of creating unnecessary tension.

There isn't any for me. I have developed a loose grip and (at least in practice) a swing that throws the clubhead toward the target in right field.

Good posts all the way around. I'm still learning in my advanced age. Best, -Marv

[iacas]

7 hours ago, MarvChamp said:

Yeah...The word "push" may just be describing a feel. If I pause in the backswing, the push/squat is ONE of the things I feel as ALL things begin to unwind for the downswing. For me, an old baseball player, it's kind of like the beginning of the step into the swing.

It is very much a feel, because two things contradict you here:

1. Your right leg is already extended, and thus, cannot "push" much at all. Only a bent right leg can "push" (by extending), and one of the first moves in a downswing is to regain flexion in both the right hip and right knee (and right ankle). Hence, no "pushing."
2. They've wired people up to machines and things to measure how much the muscles contribute to the golf swing, and the right leg does almost nothing to contribute to the golf swing. People get forward (slide their hips forward) and rotate almost entirely through their core muscles and a bit of their left (lead) leg.

So yeah, it's a "feel" entirely - you're not really "pushing" off your right side at all, and certainly not with your leg(s).

[JM2334]

On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 6:50 PM, DaveP043 said:

Reading this again, I should probably clarify.  For me, a feeling of effort isn't always positive, its comes most often when I'm feeling out of sync, when I'm kind of hitting at the ball.  On those days, a golf swing is work!  When I'm swing with the proper sequence, I'm not feeling like I'm adding effort.  I know I'm using my muscles, throughout the swing and through most of my body, but somehow it seems "easy."

This is exactly how I feel, when I'm swinging easy and using my whole body striking is improved and it's less effort.

After a few bad shots turn into bad round of hacking with rushed upper body/more arms, my striking has been terrible and I leave the course exhausted!

[Sandhills Golfer]

3 hours ago, JM2334 said:

This is exactly how I feel, when I'm swinging easy and using my whole body striking is improved and it's less effort.

After a few bad shots turn into bad round of hacking with rushed upper body/more arms, my striking has been terrible and I leave the course exhausted!

Agreed, we've all made that effortless swing and the ball is flushed. But, when we intend to make an effortless swing, it's usually a weak shot. Why is the game so puzzling? I believe there should be an intended lower body move. But, it is still hard to execute.

[Lihu]

On 10/12/2018 at 3:14 AM, JonMA1 said:

The full swing may be the most difficult part of the game to learn, but if @hespeler or anyone else works disproportionately harder on it than other part, it's shouldn't be that difficult to believe it would become their strength.

Two years ago I would have made that claim (and I have data to back it up). It only meant the rest of my game really sucked.

 

On 10/12/2018 at 4:34 AM, Vinsk said:

I didn’t say impossible, I said most likely not true. And that by far is the case. Someone who shoots 90 is very more likely to be raking up strokes from the long game. It’s not common that someone fires a 90 because they continued to make bogey/double bogey despite hitting a high GIR % or nGIR %. 

Practicing the long game should be disproportionate as it is that much harder. Again it’s possible but it certainly isn’t common that a player can hit fairways and greens in high percentages yet still make bogey/dB on almost every hole. 

Yeah, not this many higher handicapped players can have a decent long game and horrible short game.

Most of my strokes are lost around the green too, but’s that’s my long game being so bad. 🤪

And my lower body works pretty decent. 😁

[billchao]

3 hours ago, Sandhills Golfe said:

I believe there should be an intended lower body move. But, it is still hard to execute.

I'll reiterate what I wrote before, but there should be a lower body move. Whether or not there needs to be intent on the part of the golfer depends on the individual golfer.

You might need to feel the lower body action but there are plenty of golfers out there who don't. 

3 hours ago, Lihu said:

Most of my strokes are lost around the green too, but’s that’s my long game being so bad.

You're an 11 who averages 40% GIR - your long game is not the cause of your scoring problems around the green.

[Lihu]

28 minutes ago, billchao said:

I'll reiterate what I wrote before, but there should be a lower body move. Whether or not there needs to be intent on the part of the golfer depends on the individual golfer.

You might need to feel the lower body action but there are plenty of golfers out there who don't. 

You're an 11 who averages 40% GIR - your long game is not the cause of your scoring problems around the green.

It is right now. 😫

My last two rounds were about 20% GIR, but agreed that it excluded about 2 to 3 fringe putts per round on 9-10 holes. Still kind of bad though 🙈