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On Modern Instruction, "Feels" vs. Mechanics, and a Grab Bag of Related Topics

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3 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

You made the inference to car salesman....not me.  Do you read what you write?  It's like dealing with someone with acute ADD.  I don't even know where to begin.  If you allow students with lousy swings to build upon a false premise, then that's your deal, and why folks dislike instructors.  It's by far the worst way to teach anything.  Good gawd, you ran another thread about "non conning yourself" but then apparently you con your students.  I can't keep up with your lack of logic.

You have a handful of sycophants who agree with anything you write...but you are one guy in Erie PA who has never played on tour, your team members can barely win a city championship, but you want everyone to believe you're the guru of golf.  It's just utterly ridiculous.

Seriously??

Wow. You completely miss the point dude. 

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@Puttin4Dough, that is a really unfortunate take on OP.

Lot of us are @iacas' students with in person and online lessons for years and he has helped transformed not only many of our golf swings in the most effective way but how we approach golf as a whole.

You don't have to agree but it seems you are taking it a bit too far. Please stop doubling down on misguided drivel.

 

Edited by GolfLug

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10 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

.now that I think folks might agree with, but it's not because they're bad instructors in many cases because golf is a focused, individual, personal achievement game. 

No, it's about bad instruction. There are a ton of instructors who throw out the same generic phrases over and over again and charge exorbitant amount of money for it. It's a racket. 

Also, it's part of good instruction to teach how to properly practice. I've had about 4-5 instructors in my lifetime. Only 1 taught me how to practice. That may have been the best instruction I ever got.  

10 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

I tell the person they need to forget everything and start over....

That is an impossibility. You can't force yourself to forget. The mind does not work that way. There is no on or off switch. 

You have to work around the bad things they have ingrained overtime. I will forever have an over swinging issue. I understand this. I accept this. It will be something I need to work on for the rest of the time I play golf. It's because I played 15+ years of golf, countless shots over swinging. You as an instructor will never get me to forget this. It is something I need to be aware of, because If I am not then it will return. Every year, I spend hours working on fixing my backswing length. In the end, if I think I have it fixed, it will be back by mid-season. 

4 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

You have a handful of sycophants who agree with anything you write...but you are one guy in Erie PA who has never played on tour, your team members can barely win a city championship, but you want everyone to believe you're the guru of golf.  It's just utterly ridiculous.

Wow, you went off the rails there, and for no good reason at all. 

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10 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

I tell the person they need to forget everything and start over....much like learning the scales in piano using proper technique. 

This is a big reason why most golfers avoid getting lessons. They are afraid the instructor will "start them from scratch" and have to do a swing rebuild.

No golfer in the world has a perfect swing, everyone has issues they have to work around.

And the idea that you can just "forget everything" is false. You can't just factory reset your swing, it's a motor pattern.

5 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

If you allow students with lousy swings to build upon a false premise, then that's your deal, and why folks dislike instructors.  It's by far the worst way to teach anything. 

lol @iacas actually does the opposite, hence 5 Simple Keys and Lowest Score Wins so golfers don't have to operate under false premises.  

5 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

You have a handful of sycophants who agree with anything you write...but you are one guy in Erie PA who has never played on tour, your team members can barely win a city championship, but you want everyone to believe you're the guru of golf.  It's just utterly ridiculous.

Seriously? 🙄

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5 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

You made the inference to car salesman....not me.  Do you read what you write?  It's like dealing with someone with acute ADD.  I don't even know where to begin.  If you allow students with lousy swings to build upon a false premise, then that's your deal, and why folks dislike instructors.  It's by far the worst way to teach anything.  Good gawd, you ran another thread about "non conning yourself" but then apparently you con your students.  I can't keep up with your lack of logic.

I think the idea is to approach golf improvement as scientifically and technically as possible. Throw away all the bad information and keep only the good. If a theory was wrong, then cast it away. That’s the science.

Luckily, for me that I hadn’t been playing golf long enough to have to unlearn a lot of things before finding this site, and I was still in the process of learning things the first time.

I really love the technical aspects of this site and the way they approach things here. I’m an engineer and love engineering my swing and building training aides.

 

5 hours ago, Puttin4Dough said:

You have a handful of sycophants who agree with anything you write...but you are one guy in Erie PA who has never played on tour, your team members can barely win a city championship, but you want everyone to believe you're the guru of golf.  It's just utterly ridiculous.

Yeah, I’m definitely not that 😂

Erik’s the first instructor to use this method and it seems to work pretty well for me. So, I stick around...

BTW, had to look up “sycophants”, you’re better educated than most people, so I’d ask that you look more at other topics in this site to understand the people who run this site a bit better.

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11 hours ago, iacas said:

The first point is simply a bad assumption on your part, and an incorrect one. If I see someone with a poor grip or setup, I often fix that, then get down to the priority piece. A little time spent perusing even Member Swing topics would show you this. Hell, the first thing I had @DaveP043 do was to change his setup - he was about a 3.4 index or something at the time and telling him to "forget everything and start over" would have been absolutely bonkers. I'm only mentioning him (Dave) because he's anything but a sycophant, and he'll tell it like it is. Oh, and he got down to his lowest handicap ever with two pretty basic lessons (and good work on his part).

When I saw the posts by @Puttin4Dough, especially the talk about sycophants, I was tempted to chime in immediately, but I'm glad I waited.  Feel free to research my posts, you'll find lots of times I've disagreed with Erik on matters of opinion.  But after being involved with TheSandTrap for about 2 years, I posted videos of my swings, and @iacas did indeed recommend a significant change to my set-up.  At least it felt significant to me at the time.  We followed on with a few more changes, and I'm still working (not as diligently as I should) to improve my swing.  In short, he gave me one thing at a time to work on, with a clear explanation of WHAT to change, WHY to change it, and HOW to go about that change.  To me, that seems like a pretty good method of teaching.

Seeing as how you ( @Puttin4Dough) have chosen to belittle someone else's resume, perhaps you can provide some of your own qualifications. Do you currently teach?  What have your students accomplished?  Do your students return after you start them on a "complete rebuild" program?  Have you played at a high level yourself?  At a 3.8 index, you're not a lot better than I am.  

I enjoy discussion, even arguments at times, as long as we all respect each other.  

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Just an observation on my part based on "what I think" (?) this thread was originally intended for. 

Instruction of any kind should be an on going scenario. On going to a point where it is no longer wanted, even though it may still be needed. . 

We all started out as youngsters getting "free" instruction, or at least instruction paid for by someone else. 

As we all progressed through our first 17 years of instruction, it was still basically free to us. Yes, maybe there were supplies/equipment that needed to be purchased, but the actual in struction we recieved in life, and schooling was still free. 

Next, some of us were lucky enough to earn our college degrees free, or at least relatively cheap. 

All this free/cheap instruction also included how to play the different sports we were interested in. 

Now here we are as adults watching MLB, NBA, NFL and sports players getting paid to recieve instruction. 

It's different with golf. Professional, and amateur players both need to pay for instruction. Golf is also a game that requires continued, on going instruction for the player trying to excell at this game. 

PGA/LPGA  players continually recieve, and pay for instruction. Without on going instruction, they would probably just fade away into some other job..  Most of the professionals even have to pay to play in their tournamets. Can you imagine LeBron James having pay to play in the NBA? Brady in the NFL? 

The amateur golfer is in the same boat, but for the most part with considerably less money to pay for instruction. Most, at some point can afford two, or three lessons. The problem is, after those two,  or three lessons, they don't see the value in their investment, and certainly are not going to keep paying for on going lessons, which again, in golf, is required to excell at it. The amateur golfer comes up with various excuses to not "need" anymore lessons. The biggest excuse being the instructor who took their money, did not lower their score after two or three lessons. 

Golf is such a tough game to learn, and for 99% (?) of those taking up the game can't be self taught if the golfer wants to excell at it. 

 

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13 hours ago, iacas said:

There are people on this site whom I've never met who attribute this site to having a huge impact on their game.

I'm one of those people. Never met @iacas in person, but I think the world of him, his instruction, and his website. I haven't found a better source for scientific, research based, accurate golf instruction ANYWHERE.  He aggressively seeks truth. There is no aspect of the game or swing that he hasn't taken apart and asked if it could be done better.

Thank you Erik. 👍

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I post swing thoughts and techniques that are straight from top golf instructors I've worked with, and/or tour pro's, .  But the problem is even top instructors disagree with each other.  Why?  Because the person receiving the information doesn't think the same way.  Therefore, golf swing instruction will never be universal.  Even tour pro's have a difficult time finding the right instructor because nobody has invented anything new about the golf swing despite claims made otherwise, but each swing is highly individual and unique. 

Everyone teaches differently and students react to instruction differently.  Give a student something more difficult to work on and they'll say "it ruined my swing" and continue shooting 102.  The incalculable number of videos and books about golf reveals the fact that everyone perceives swing movement and feel differently.  Some don't want to put in the time but expect results.  Others practice inefficient moves for decades.  Some are naturally talented like 2 year old Tiger hitting balls on the Merv Griffin Show.  People say golf takes decades to learn, but explain why a 10 year old kid can drive the ball 220 who started golf at 8 years old.  That's my neighbor's kid, and in his case we shy away from explaining anything "mechanical"...we let him play.

Some folks might post what sounds like a pro giving them "bad" instruction, but it's likely because that instructor is working on a specific issue to undo a bad habit, therefore the initial post and subsequent comments are meaningless..

I don't disagree with instruction on TSP, i point out different thoughts, but 99% of the time i receive sarcastic "you're wrong" responses. Disagreeing with a person's individual swing thoughts or how they learn is like disagreeing with how someone talks, what colors they like, pace of walking, or the car they drive..  

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On 1/6/2019 at 2:37 PM, Puttin4Dough said:

I post swing thoughts and techniques that are straight from top golf instructors I've worked with, and/or tour pro's.

If they're just stuff from other people, why get so personally offended? It's just a bit of information. And to be honest, maybe you're calm, but you didn't seem that way. I've never gotten riled up by other people's disagreement. If I feel strongly about my position, I'll state it and argue it. At the end of the day, though, it's just golf. It's a freaking game. Some times it amazes me that people pay for instruction at all.

And… plenty of tour pros and instructors give out crappy, terrible advice. Tips that make no sense. Players aren't instructors; it's a completely different skill set. Lots of instructors didn't (and many still don't) even know the correct ball flight laws. "Hitting a slice? Oh, roll your wrists over and close the clubface." 🤦‍♂️ "Top instructors" have given that advice… and it's bad, terrible advice (IMO).

Finally, sorry to say, but I'm a "top golf instructor." Not that I care about the titles - I know plenty of crappy instructors with titles and plenty of great instructors who haven't won awards or titles at all (or yet).

If you think something, say it. And then stand by it. Grow a thick enough skin.

On 1/6/2019 at 2:37 PM, Puttin4Dough said:

Even tour pro's have a difficult time finding the right instructor because nobody has invented anything new about the golf swing despite claims made otherwise, but each swing is highly individual and unique.

Depending on your definition of "invented," I disagree. I think it's undeniable that our understanding has grown tremendously, and we have insights into areas that were previously black boxes. We have better tools capable of measuring far more than ever.

On 1/6/2019 at 2:37 PM, Puttin4Dough said:

I don't disagree with instruction on TST, i point out different thoughts, but 99% of the time i receive sarcastic "you're wrong" responses. Disagreeing with a person's individual swing thoughts or how they learn is like disagreeing with how someone talks, what colors they like, pace of walking, or the car they drive..

I realize the irony here, but you have 78 posts. For 99% of them to be "wrong," you'd have had to post 77 posts that got a "you're wrong" response. That's not even close to accurate.

The irony is that I'm basically saying "you're wrong" to this post… because you are.

Facts and opinions can be wrong. Opinions cannot be, and I'm well aware of this, so I think your perception of getting a 99% response rate of "you're wrong" is wildly off base.

  • In the "Conning Yourself" topic, you were wrong, and you did get a few "you're wrong" responses… because you were wrong. The topic was clearly defined in the first post, with words like "this thread is about discussing this…" and you continually posted about it being something else. That was not a difference of opinion, and it had nothing to do with actual instruction. The topic wasn't even really instructionally based. (People can con themselves into thinking they're a great father, or a good employee, or that they're doing what they can to volunteer in their communities, etc.).
  • In this topic, you've made a few posts and not gotten a single "you're wrong" post.
  • In the "Speed from the Arms" topic, you got one "you're wrong" post (not from me) despite about six or seven posts of your own.
  • Proper grip pressure, last post in the topic, no "you're wrong" response.
  • Nobody really replied to you in the Ballard topic, where you made two or three posts.
  • You were wildly off topic in the "Failure to Include" topic, but nobody said "you're wrong" there.
  • That was your last 40 posts or so, so I looked at your first few… also no "you're wrong" type posts, like in the "do not accelerate" topic where you started asking about whether you should straighten your right leg during the golf swing (not on topic).

So no, I think if you look back at your posts, you'll find that your 99% assessment is not just invalid, it's wildly so.

I think that, for whatever reason, you've got some sort of chip on your shoulder, or something.

I took the time to respond to your really poor post here in this topic, and I get this back. You didn't address a single thing in the topic about how you'd advise someone to "forget everything and start over." You didn't address the question about what you call "fundamentals." You didn't address any of the mud you slung, without provocation, and instead just continued to make up shit about how 99% of your posts are met with "you're wrong."

As predicted, it was a waste of time as far as you're concerned. I ended up writing it because it lets me clarify my thoughts for others. Others who are worth the time, because they haven't come on here just to behave as poorly as you have.

This topic, like every topic here, will be kept on topic. Please respond to the topic at hand - anything stated in the OP, and those in subsequent posts closely related to the OP - and not go off on some tangent, particularly if that involves slinging mud and just generally behaving poorly.


And seriously, I encourage debate. I encourage discussion. I like it when people have a different perspective, because it presents to me an opportunity to grow my own knowledge base. Dave and I work very hard at "not conning ourselves" (not lying to ourselves) by thinking we can't get any better than we are now, and listening to interesting people is part of how we stay on top of things and continue to improve.

But…

  • If you're going to be personally offended by a disagreement, don't bother. It's just information, and opinions.
  • If it's not even your own information or opinion, then really don't be personally offended.
  • Don't make blanket statements like "anyone" or "automatic" or whatever. They're easily shown to be false, and make for a bad argument.
  • Don't insult what I do as a whole, or those who often (but not always) agree with me, not just because it just makes you look like an ass, but also because really you've got no real idea how I teach.
  • Understand the differences between facts and opinions and apply that understanding in how you react. Facts can be right and wrong, opinions can be agreed with or disagreed with.
  • Don't give too much weight to PGA Tour players. They're very good at what they do, but "give great instruction" is not "what they do."
  • Feel ain't real. On a forum, when speaking generally (i.e. not to one person about his or her specific swing), I don't really care about "feels." I can only really talk about what's "real" in that case. Does the player do move "X" or "Y"? I don't care what it feels like, only that they do or don't do this or that.

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