No Reservations for Singles?

[RemyM]

My course does not allow singles to book their own tee time online in a completely open slot.  They are welcome to book as a single to any twosome or threesome already booked.  Singles are welcome to show up and play as a single in open tee times on the day of play.

[Jeremie Boop]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

A person chooses to not wear a shirt or obey the dress code, too: the place in question can refuse them service, whether it's a restaurant or a golf course.

The fact is "single golfers" are not a "protected class."

I'm not talking about illegal discrimination. When policies are set, be it dress code or any other restrictions, they are setting up discriminating factors by which they will provide a service to a customer. I'm not even saying there's anything wrong with that, as long as they don't step over into illegal discrimination. My point was, technically it is discrimination. In no way do I think it's grounds for suing or any legal action, that's ridiculous of course.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Jeremie Boop

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, gbogey said:

I'm really struggling with the logic here but let me say this - I started playing golf on a well run municipal system of 5 golf courses. The courses made a profit and helped fund other park programs. On Saturday and Sundays EVERY tee time would be reserved from opening (as early as 6 a.m.) to 11 a.m. or later depending on the course. All the courses, including the one where cart fees were included in the green fee, allowed singles to reserve a tee time. But they forced grouped people together to get people out to play. If you were a foursome with a no show, a walk up single would get inserted. No ands, ifs, or buts, or any of the "we just want to play alone" stuff.  I've seen it work and believe me there was no revenue loss at these courses.

So? Because one course or system does this, every other course needs to do this same exact thing?

Just now, Jeremie Boop said:

I'm not even saying there's anything wrong with that

That's kinda the point of the conversation. If you're just wanting to point out only a semantics issue… why bother?

[saevel25]

11 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

A person chooses to have long hair, if there were a policy that said nobody could play if they had long hair would you see that as discrimination? Just because something is a choice doesn't mean it can't be a factor for discrimination. You are using a pretty narrow view of discrimination.

They have rules like that. It's called a dress code. Absolutely a course has a right to set a dress code. I don't think it's discriminatory to have a dress code. If a business says their employees can't wear blue jeans to work it's not discriminatory. If they demand that tattoos need to be covered up, it's not discriminatory. If a golf course demands that a person look up-kept, it's not discriminatory.

1 minute ago, gbogey said:

All the courses, including the one where cart fees were included in the green fee, allowed singles to reserve a tee time. But they forced grouped people together to get people out to play. If you were a foursome with a no show, a walk up single would get inserted. No ands, ifs, or buts, or any of the "we just want to play alone" stuff.  I've seen it work and believe me there was no revenue loss at these courses.

You are changing the hypothetical.

Scenario 1: A course doesn't allow singles or single reservations on the course. This means that the course can fill up spots by getting people who have a larger group or pair up singles with groups that have less than 4 people.

Scenario 2: A course allows singles to have their own tee time slot. 

Your description falls under scenario 1, and would benefit the course. There are people who think they have a right to take an entire tee time slot for themselves and it is unfair that a course denies them this.

1 minute ago, Jeremie Boop said:

My point was, technically it is discrimination. In no way do I think it's grounds for suing or any legal action, that's ridiculous of course.

I say it isn't.

If someone gets bent out of shape because a higher end restaurant requires you to wear a suit jacket (FYI, this has happened to me, and the restaurant had one for me to borrow), then that is not the restaurants fault. Wanting to uphold a certain level of decorum is not discriminatory.

[Jeremie Boop]

6 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I say it isn't.

If someone gets bent out of shape because a higher end restaurant requires you to wear a suit jacket (FYI, this has happened to me, and the restaurant had one for me to borrow), then that is not the restaurants fault. Wanting to uphold a certain level of decorum is not discriminatory.

I think we are just both going by different definitions of discrimination. I prefer to go by the general :  to make a difference in treatment or favor on a basis other than individual merit 

and you are going by the more cultural/modern version : behavior or actions, usually negative, towards an individual or group of people, especially on the basis of sex/race/social class, etc

I've already said, businesses have every right to set up whatever policies they want to set the standard of customer they wish to serve short of actual illegal discrimination. If they set standards too high or too low then the market will sort them out accordingly anyway.

On a side note, it is interesting how many different takes there are on words like discrimination, prejudice. So many people assume that prejudice or discrimination is automatically an evil/bad thing when that's not always the case.

[gbogey]

31 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Your description falls under scenario 1, and would benefit the course. There are people who think they have a right to take an entire tee time slot for themselves and it is unfair that a course denies them this.

I don't think anyone here, particularly me, is advocating that singles should be allowed to have their own tee time.  If so they should be caned with an alignment stick (unless of course they pay for all 4 tee times in which you would have another debate).  Sorry, but I am passionate about this as it has been one of the most frustrating aspects of moving last summer.  And yes, I do believe a legal challenge would be successful not on the grounds of singles discrimination but due to lack of access to a public taxpayer facility. Hopefully I will never be the one to make that legal challenge and hopefully I will ignore this set topic for a while.  

[iacas]

1 minute ago, gbogey said:

I don't think anyone here, particularly me, is advocating that singles should be allowed to have their own tee time.

That's what some have said, yes.

Most everywhere will attempt to pair a single with a group of < 4 golfers. If that is what the discussion was about, there wouldn't be much of a discussion.

1 minute ago, gbogey said:

And yes, I do believe a legal challenge would be successful not on the grounds of singles discrimination but due to lack of access to a public taxpayer facility.

It would not. Not for taking reservations for a single.

[saevel25]

22 minutes ago, gbogey said:

And yes, I do believe a legal challenge would be successful not on the grounds of singles discrimination but due to lack of access to a public taxpayer facility. Hopefully I will never be the one to make that legal challenge and hopefully I will ignore this set topic for a while.  

I doubt it. You are not barred from playing golf there. Just ask the course if there is any groups that you can pair up with or go find a friend.

[RemyM]

It's a policy in order to maximize tee times and revenue.  Same as the policy that we have the right to pair up twosomes booked within 30 minutes of each other.  Nothing worse then having a twosome book at 10:00 on a weekend morning then another twosome books 10:09.  Now a foursome comes looking for a tee time and there is nothing available for a couple of hours.  Then there is the single who goes out and plays two balls all round.  You only pay for one round but you take divots and make ball marks for two people.  I understand the new to an area argument and don't know anyone, but if your a decent person you should be able to find some other people to play with pretty quickly.  Since we are talking public courses, the other option is to join a men's or women's club there.

The restaurant comparison would be to call for a Saturday night reservation at 7:00 for yourself, but insist they they put you at a table for four.

[Yukari]

3 hours ago, gbogey said:

I don't think anyone here, particularly me, is advocating that singles should be allowed to have their own tee time.  If so they should be caned with an alignment stick (unless of course they pay for all 4 tee times in which you would have another debate).  Sorry, but I am passionate about this as it has been one of the most frustrating aspects of moving last summer.  And yes, I do believe a legal challenge would be successful not on the grounds of singles discrimination but due to lack of access to a public taxpayer facility. Hopefully I will never be the one to make that legal challenge and hopefully I will ignore this set topic for a while.  

Surely you can't be serious?

[rehmwa]

I play single pretty much 95% of my rounds.  I rarely have problems.  But we do have a LOT of courses around here.

• I check the online sites to see which courses are simply loaded up - I avoid those that day.  I don't want to jockey for a tight tee time or play on a crowded/slow course.
• Courses that appear they will be open, I might just go there and ask to put in where ever I fit.  I've rarely had an issue with this.  By this I mean fit in with 1 or 2 or 3 already booked.  I do NOT expect my own time - that's ridiculous - I pay for ONE slot in a 4some, NOT for the entire timeslot.  Sometimes you have to remind the person booking that you are fine with filling out a 4 some.  I'm surprised I have to do this as often as I do - They look for a totally open slot and I can clearly SEE on the sheet a 2 some going out......I've literally gone to the 1st tee and sometimes see 2, and then 1, and then 1 standing there waiting their turns.  Geez guys, let's all group up, it looks like there's more waiting.....or, I'm 3 groups back from a single (REALLY?) "hey, buddy, can I jump up and join you?"
• If I'm traveling a bit to these courses, I will call ahead and mention I'm a solo, and make sure they look at their bookings and will have a place for me.  Right then, they might reserve me a time alone (expecting others to join me), or they might match me up with a partial group.  Or they might tell me not to bother.  Or they might tell me to just come by and they'll make it work.  Seriously, you just have to ask, it's not the end of the world, and someone even marginally competent will give you the info you need - they aren't trying scare away business, they want you there.

If you are a 2 some, or a 3 some, and you refuse to let anyone fill out your 4 some, you are a jerk and also you are stealing from the course.  If you want all 4 slots, you should have to pay for them.  If you don't, you should have no say in how they are filled.

In that same philosophy,, If I'm playing solo or paired on a course and it's running slow, and circumstances bring me/us to another group that can combine to a 4 some (surrounded by other 4 somes), I will always volunteer (or insist) we combine those groups.

 

so much easier with a wide open course where I can go out alone and not see another human - but that's a rare treat to enjoy when it happens

Edited April 1, 2019 by rehmwa

[Pretzel]

5 hours ago, gbogey said:

And yes, I do believe a legal challenge would be successful not on the grounds of singles discrimination but due to lack of access to a public taxpayer facility.

To address this, no that's not how any of this works. There are well-documented examples of other systems that deny access to "public taxpayer facility" to people who are alone and they hold up just fine in a court of law. These examples are called HOV lanes, publicly funded roads that are not available to those driving alone.

You have the same access as everyone else to the facility. Nobody is denying you access based on any protected class, nor are they specifically targeting you. They have a blanket policy that applies to everyone which prohibits singles from reserving in advance. You can get around this by either playing as a fill-in golfer to pair up with groups, or you can play with other golfers. I'd be wiling to bet they even have a men's club that would allow you to meet and find other golfers to play with and reserve tee times.

[sjduffers]

There is a course in my area that does not allow their web site reservation system to book one tee time spot (not a whole tee time for 4 spots) for a single, regardless of whether nobody or a twosome or a threesome has already reserved spots in that time slot, even a few hours before tee time. You have to call them either the night before or the day of to be put on the tee sheet as a single. Period.

It’s just stupid. I have complained numerous times to the folks at the counter and they agree with me, but refer me to the general manager instead who won’t budge and tells me to call the night before or the day of. And the course is busy enough that losing my business is not going to affect them either way, so I play in the early afternoon when many single walk-ons end up doing the same thing, except that it is not an option in the winter as there is not enough day light to finish, typically.

I have no problem whatsoever getting paired with just about anybody and typically enjoy the experience. I have never asked and will never ask for a tee time all to myself, so don’t talk to me about a single can’t be by themselves on a busy course. Of course not: that would be stupid too.

But not allowing someone to book online the remaining single spot when a threesome has already booked is just stupid: what do they expect? That the three blokes call up later and say “oh, we forgot that Joe was coming too: can we turn that threesome into a foursome?” Bull! People would rather book a foursome even though they only have a threesome committed at the time, and maybe cancel one slot the day before (which the course still won’t let a single book online, btw!), or at the last minute if they can get away with it and not pay the cancellation fees.

And for those saying “get a friend”, I say “get a slighter wider frame of mind”. You are assuming weekend play, and nobody has mentioned weekend being a factor in this. My complaint at this course applies to weekdays and not everyone has buddies available to play during that time, but that’s when I choose to play and I typically avoid weekend play like the plague (unless tournaments). I have friends, thank you, but not golfers willing to play in the middle of the week. I meet and get phone numbers of various fellow players and sometimes try to arrange a future weekday round, but those things also have a way of falling through...

So, in my book, the OP complaint is legit.

[Big C]

2 hours ago, rehmwa said:

 

• If I'm traveling a bit to these courses, I will call ahead and mention I'm a solo, and make sure they look at their bookings and will have a place for me.  Right then, they might reserve me a time alone (expecting others to join me), or they might match me up with a partial group.  Or they might tell me not to bother.  Or they might tell me to just come by and they'll make it work.  Seriously, you just have to ask, it's not the end of the world, and someone even marginally competent will give you the info you need - they aren't trying scare away business, they want you there. 

 

This is where the OP went wrong, in my opinion. Back in my younger days, when I would occasionally play as a single, I would always call the course an hour or two before departing. I would ask them something along the lines of "what does it look like to walk on as a single?" Usually it would be no problem and in the rare occasion when they were booked solid, I wouldn't have to waste the time driving over there. 

Yes, you called the day before, but you really should have called the day of to make sure before heading over. 

2 hours ago, rehmwa said:

 

If you are a 2 some, or a 3 some, and you refuse to let anyone fill out your 4 some, you are a jerk and also you are stealing from the course.  If you want all 4 slots, you should have to pay for them.  If you don't, you should have no say in how they are filled.

 

Most courses won't give you the option. If your group isn't filled, you are getting paired up from the wait-list. I have never seen a twosome or threesome actually be given the option to decline a pairing, short of some super high end courses (Pelican Hill, etc.). 

Hell, once I was told by a local muni that I wouldn't even get a cart to myself when I walked on as a single! That's right, not only was I required to join another group (perfectly fine, no issues with that), but I had to share a cart with some complete stranger. 

Noticing the abundance of empty carts in the staging area, I politely asked if they would re-consider that policy. The guy behind the counter hesitated for a minute, but ultimately decided to give me my own key, lol.

[dennyjones]

19 minutes ago, Big C said:

Hell, once I was told by a local muni that I wouldn't even get a cart to myself when I walked on as a single! That's right, not only was I required to join another group (perfectly fine, no issues with that), but I had to share a cart with some complete stranger. 

I've had this happen to me.   I really didn't like it but sort of expected it.    There are times that I will take my push cart for just this reason if it is very busy.   

 

20 minutes ago, Big C said:

Noticing the abundance of empty carts in the staging area, I politely asked if they would re-consider that policy. The guy behind the counter hesitated for a minute, but ultimately decided to give me my own key, lol.

I've had this happen also.   I guess it depends upon the mood of the person in the club house.

[Big C]

22 minutes ago, dennyjones said:

 

I've had this happen also.   I guess it depends upon the mood of the person in the club house.

Completely right. The starters at most places have a ton of discretion. 

One of the benefits to playing most of my golf at my "home" course over the past 5 or so years is developing a relationship with the guys that run the course. I know several of the guys in the pro-shop by name and have played a few 9 hole rounds with the GM & assistant GM. 

I never expect freebies regardless of my relationship, but I've definitely been hooked up a few times unexpectedly. 

[boogielicious]

16 hours ago, Yukari said:

Surely you can't be serious?

Of course he is serious. And don't call him Shirley.

I would not think that kind of legal challenge would have any merit.

[David in FL]

14 hours ago, dennyjones said:

I've had this happen to me.   I really didn't like it but sort of expected it.    There are times that I will take my push cart for just this reason if it is very busy.   

 

I've had this happen also.   I guess it depends upon the mood of the person in the club house.

Huh.

If 4 singles are all paired together, would you expect to be provided with 4 individual carts?

Even at my private club, the expectation is generally that golfers will share carts.  That reduces wear and tear on both the carts, and the course...