Rule situation: wrong ball vs. provisional

[sjduffers]

I played a tee shot on a steep drop-off fairway with limited visibility of the landing area. It goes to the left a bit, and since there is OB further left, I also play a provisional.  A fellow competitor hits a drive that barely goes around a tree and the beginning of the landing area.  We all proceed down to our balls and the guy mentions hit "his" ball, as it lies nearby that tree in question.  I look for my ball for a while, can't find it and go hit the provisional in the fairway.  However, the lie is a very steep side-hill lie that wants to send the shot left where the road and OB waits. I compensate too much and sail 3 balls straight into the forrest on the right of the green, before I finally wise up and club down and put one in the front bunker, from which I get out and 3-putt for a smooth 14.  Meanwhile the guy gets to where his second shot lies, maybe 80 yards from the green and asks me what kind of ball I use.  Weird, huh?  I go over and it's the ball I used in my first tee shot: he hit the wrong ball!  All he saw was a red mark on the ball and he assumed it was his: it's not the same brand of ball (Titleist vs. Bridgestone), the same number or even the same type of mark: his has a huge red mark covering several dimples and mine has 2 red-filled dimples on each side of the ball. How can one not notice? I don't know but that's not the point...

I tell him we should go back there and should rectify the situation and add 2 strokes to his score, but the next group has already teed off and is at or past that spot.  So he drops a new ball (in the wrong spot, but we can't go back, we think....) and finishes the hole and we add 2 to his score for the wrong ball.

My question is, assuming that we could (and should) have gone back there, for him to look for his actual ball (or go back still further to the tee to rehit if not found), should I have been entitled to play my first ball from its initial spot and effectively cancel not only the provisional but all the bad stuff that happened with it, potentially resulting in a 5 or 6 on this par 4 instead of a 14?  In other words, does a wrong ball situation override the fact that after I hit my provisional, it became my ball in play?

[DaveP043]

My first reaction is to say yes, you only played your provisional after you couldn't find your first ball.  Once you found out that your first ball had been played by someone else, you should have gone back and dropped a ball as close as possible to where your original ball was, and played on from there.  I understand the practicalities and pace of play issues, so sometimes the "right" thing isn't an option, but I believe that under the rules, your provisional and all the ensuing mayhem was cancelled as soon as you found your original ball had been played by the other guy.

[ghalfaire]

 

Unfortunately, for you anyway, I believe that once you have looked for the ball and concluded it was OB or lost and hit your provisional it is the ball in play.  For the other player he should return to the spot and look for his ball.  If not found he needs to return to the tee.  Where the group behind you is doesn't change the rules.  

However if it was me in that situation and it wasn't a tournament I would probably take a most likely score if I had played my ball and your buddy too plus 2 stokes.  But I guess I wouldn't go back and make a foursome wait while my buddy played his ball or went to the tee if he couldn't find it.

[Missouri Swede]

29 minutes ago, ghalfaire said:

Unfortunately, for you anyway, I believe that once you have looked for the ball and concluded it was OB or lost and hit your provisional it is the ball in play.

I think this is correct.  These decisions seem applicable:

Quote

15/5

 

Original Ball Found and Played After Another Ball Put into Play

Q.A player unable to find his ball after a brief search drops another ball (Ball B) under Rule 27-1 and plays it. His original ball is then found within five minutes after search for it began. The player lifted Ball B and continued to play with the original ball. Was this correct?

A.No. When the player put the substituted ball into play at the spot of the previous stroke with the intent to play a ball under Rule 27-1, he proceeded under an applicable Rule. Therefore, Rule 20-6 does not apply, and he must continue with the substituted ball (see Decision 27-1/2). The original ball was lost when Ball B was dropped under Rule 27-1 (see Definition of "Lost Ball").

When the player lifted Ball B, he incurred a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a. When he made a stroke with the original ball after it was out of play, he played a wrong ball (see Definitions of "Ball in Play" and "Wrong Ball") and incurred a penalty of loss of hole in match play or an additional penalty of two strokes in stroke play (Rule 15-3). In stroke play, the player would be disqualified if, before playing from the next teeing ground, he did not correct his error (Rule 15-3b).

Quote

27-2b/5

 

Original Ball Played After Provisional Ball Played from Point Nearer Hole Than Original Ball Is Likely to Be

Q.A player, unable to find his original ball, goes forward and makes a second stroke with his provisional ball from a point nearer the hole than the place where the original ball is likely to be. His original ball is then found and he plays it. What is the ruling?

A.When the player made his second stroke with the provisional ball, the original ball was lost and the provisional ball was in play - Rule 27-2b. In making a stroke with a ball that was no longer in play (the original ball), the player played a wrong ball - see Definition of "Wrong Ball" - and was subject to penalty as prescribed in Rule 15-3.

Quote

27/6

 

Player Unable to Find His Ball Because Another Player Played It

Q.A and B hit their tee shots into the same general area. A found a ball and played it. B went forward to look for his ball and could not find it. After a few minutes, B started back to the tee to put another ball into play. On the way, he found A's ball and knew then that A had played his (B's) ball in error. What is the ruling?

A.In match play, A lost the hole (Rule 15-3a).

In stroke play, A incurred a penalty of two strokes for playing a wrong ball and must then play his own ball (Rule 15-3b). A's ball was not lost even if A and B had been searching for more than five minutes because A had not "begun to search for it (his ball)"; the searching had been for B's ball - see Definition of "Lost Ball."

On the other hand, B began to search for his ball as soon as he went forward to look for it. If less than five minutes had elapsed before B found A's ball, B should have placed a ball on the spot from which A had wrongly played his (B's) ball and continued play, without penalty - see last paragraph of Rule 15-3b. However, if five minutes had expired, B's original ball was lost and he was obliged to put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance (Rule 27-1).

 

[ColinL]

Briefly, the fact that your fellow competitor played your ball does not cancel out your playing the provisional ball.   There are these possibilities depending on where you played the played the provisional from:

If you played it from where your original was likely to be or nearer the hole, your original ball is lost and your provisional is the ball in play and you continue play with it. 

If you played further from the hole , then your original ball is still in play.  If it is found within 5 minutes of starting to search for it you can replace it where it lay before your FC played it and your provisional is abandoned. If it is not found within 5 minutes of starting to search for it, it is lost and your provisional is the ball in play.

Edited November 8, 2015 by ColinL

[rogolf]

34 minutes ago, ColinL said:

Briefly, the fact that your fellow competitor played your ball does not cancel out your playing the provisional ball.   There are these possibilities depending on where you played the played the provisional from:

If you played it from where your original was likely to be or nearer the hole, your original ball is lost and your provisional is the ball in play and you continue play with it. 

If you played further from the hole , then your original ball is still in play.  If it is found within 5 minutes of starting to search for it you can replace it where it lay before your FC played it and your provisional is abandoned. If it is not found within 5 minutes of starting to search for it, it is lost and your provisional is the ball in play.

Further to Colin's post - if your original ball is not found within 5 minutes of beginning to search for it, or it is not known or virtually certain, within that 5 minutes, that another player played your original a ball, your original ball is lost and you must continue with the provisional.

[DaveP043]

Oy, I'm obviously wrong, I apologize.  I dislike the decision, because it seems completely unfair to the player whose ball was played by another player, but the decision is clear.  Its odd that in match play our unfortunate player wins the hole, but in stroke play, he's penalized for a lost ball.  Very similar circumstances, very different results.  For better or worse, the rules (and decisions) are the rules.

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Oy, I'm obviously wrong, I apologize.  I dislike the decision, because it seems completely unfair to the player whose ball was played by another player, but the decision is clear.  Its odd that in match play our unfortunate player wins the hole, but in stroke play, he's penalized for a lost ball.  Very similar circumstances, very different results.  For better or worse, the rules (and decisions) are the rules.

He doesn't win the hole, the opponent loses the hole. I know the end result is the same, but the semantics are a little important there.

[DaveP043]

You're right, and I agree, the result is basically the same.  If we look at the "other guy" the results are similarly odd.  In match play, he loses the hole, in stroke play he thanks his unfortunate fellow-competitor and plays on with the two-stroke penalty, knowing he's cost the other guy something like two strokes (more or less, depending on the quality of the provisional v. the original drive) by his blunder.  Either way, I understand the decision, I understand the reasoning, I just don't like it.

[Fourputt]

59 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

You're right, and I agree, the result is basically the same.  If we look at the "other guy" the results are similarly odd.  In match play, he loses the hole, in stroke play he thanks his unfortunate fellow-competitor and plays on with the two-stroke penalty, knowing he's cost the other guy something like two strokes (more or less, depending on the quality of the provisional v. the original drive) by his blunder.  Either way, I understand the decision, I understand the reasoning, I just don't like it.

This is a situation where a player isn't screwed by the rules, he is screwed by playing with an idiot who can't even recognize his only identification mark.

[Golfingdad]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

You're right, and I agree, the result is basically the same.  If we look at the "other guy" the results are similarly odd.  In match play, he loses the hole, in stroke play he thanks his unfortunate fellow-competitor and plays on with the two-stroke penalty, knowing he's cost the other guy something like two strokes (more or less, depending on the quality of the provisional v. the original drive) by his blunder.  Either way, I understand the decision, I understand the reasoning, I just don't like it.

In this particular situation, he effectively cost his FC nearly 10 strokes!!!  Jesus, I would feel horrible if I did something that dumb.  Luckily it would be near impossible for me to do that because my markings are quite large and unique.  Four initials around each logo such that it would be very difficult not to see one of the letters while the ball is on the ground.

[Abu3baid]

I'm sorry, but this must be one of the worst rules in golf that I have ever encountered yet..  Someone hits my ball, and I'm penalized because I didn't find out in less than five minutes?  Huh?  

Talk about a screw job, I'm disgusted.

[sjduffers]

Thank you to all who responded. @DaveP043, don't feel bad and no need to apologize.  The guy who does is the one who played the wrong ball, lol!

The bit about the provisional being played closer to the hole than the expected place the original is likely to be is especially interesting in this case, as the fact that the original ball was laying close to the aforementioned tree means that the tree caught it and made it travel quite a bit less than it should have (and looked like in the air).  This is why I was not paying particularly close attention to the ball by the tree (it was not really under it, but a bit further to the side) which turned out to be mine. I was looking for it further, close to where my provisional actually was.  Yes, the tree may have saved my original ball from going OB, but it also led to the rest of this fiasco...

 

1 hour ago, Fourputt said:

This is a situation where a player isn't screwed by the rules, he is screwed by playing with an idiot who can't even recognize his only identification mark.

Morality of the story: the rub of the green can be overridden by the rob of the idiot!  

 

13 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

I'm sorry, but this must be one of the worst rules in golf that I have ever encountered yet..  Someone hits my ball, and I'm penalized because I didn't find out in less than five minutes?  Huh?  

Talk about a screw job, I'm disgusted.

I have to say that, like you and Dave, I don't like this rule one bit, but I understand where it is coming from.  Bottom line, don't play with people who can't even tell whether they are hitting their own ball, when everything about the ball they are hitting is different than theirs (make, model, number, mark), and if you do make sure to look at their ball before they hit it. Not helping the pace of play much, but that's another story...

[DeadMan]

Another takeaway is, when two people are looking for balls in a similar area, and one says that he found his ball, ask whether it's actually his ball. I'm guessing if he had looked more carefully in this situation, it all would have been rectified.

But really, the guy only cost you, OP, 2 strokes. The fact that you made a 14 sounds like it's more down to your decisions than his play. He cost himself 2 strokes by playing the wrong ball, and he cost you 2 strokes as well.

[Abu3baid]

4 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

Thank you to all who responded. @DaveP043, don't feel bad and no need to apologize.  The guy who does is the one who played the wrong ball, lol!

The bit about the provisional being played closer to the hole than the expected place the original is likely to be is especially interesting in this case, as the fact that the original ball was laying close to the aforementioned tree means that the tree caught it and made it travel quite a bit less than it should have (and looked like in the air).  This is why I was not paying particularly close attention to the ball by the tree (it was not really under it, but a bit further to the side) which turned out to be mine. I was looking for it further, close to where my provisional actually was.  Yes, the tree may have saved my original ball from going OB, but it also led to the rest of this fiasco...

 

Morality of the story: the rub of the green can be overridden by the rob of the idiot!  

 

I have to say that, like you and Dave, I don't like this rule one bit, but I understand where it is coming from.  Bottom line, don't play with people who can't even tell whether they are hitting their own ball, when everything about the ball they are hitting is different than theirs (make, model, number, mark), and if you do make sure to look at their ball before they hit it. Not helping the pace of play much, but that's another story...

This is just one instance.. I'll give you another situation:  you are in a tournament and the guy you are paired with is friends with he guy in the lead and he wants him to win, and you are having a great day so far, he takes an opportunity at a certain hole and just picks up your ball and puts it in his pocket.. After the 5 minutes is up and you go back and hit your 3rd from the tee he casually tosses the ball but he is seen by someone and the gig is up..  You end up hitting your 3rd OB, your hitting 5 now and you end up with a 12 on the hole.. The guy is disqualified, and you continue with no chance of winning..

sound fair?  Not to me..

[ColinL]

In stroke play, the fellow competitor who plays your ball by mistake is no different from any other outside agency which might move your ball - a competitor from another group, a bird,  a dog, greenkeeper’s equipment,  a thieving urchin from over the boundary fence. But do remember what Rogolf reminded us of - you do not have to find your ball if it is known or virtually certain that an outside agency took it.

Edited November 9, 2015 by ColinL

[sjduffers]

1 minute ago, ColinL said:

In stroke play, the fellow competitor who plays your ball by mistake is no different from any other outside agency which might move your ball - bird, dog, greenkeeper’s equipment,  thieving urchin from over the boundary fence. But do remember what Rogolf reminded us of - you do not have to find your ball if it is known or virtually certain that an outside agency took it.

Understood and this is a very good point, but this doesn't apply here as I didn't expect my ball to be where it was: it obviously hit that tree and came down quickly near it, instead of continuing on that line, possibly heading OB. I had no reason to suspect (or be virtually certain) that the FC hit my ball, until he coughed up to hit down by the green, after I hit my provisional (it is questionable whether or not it was closer to the hole than my expected original), and spent more than 5 minutes doing the rest of the nightmare...

I thought this was an interesting rule situation to bring up and appreciate all who answered it so very thoroughly. Cheers!

11 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

Another takeaway is, when two people are looking for balls in a similar area, and one says that he found his ball, ask whether it's actually his ball. I'm guessing if he had looked more carefully in this situation, it all would have been rectified.

True.

12 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

But really, the guy only cost you, OP, 2 strokes. The fact that you made a 14 sounds like it's more down to your decisions than his play. He cost himself 2 strokes by playing the wrong ball, and he cost you 2 strokes as well.

In theory, yes.  In practice, no: there was no way for me to hit into the area where the bad decisions led me to hit 3 lost balls from where the original ball was, even with three bad decisions and/or swings in a row. I am certain the most likely score from there was a 5 or 6 (par 4), not 12.  But, I do get your point.

20 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

The guy is disqualified, and you continue with no chance of winning..

sound fair?  Not to me..

No it's not fair, but it's also premised on the intent of cheating.  Nothing in golf (or the rules of golf) assumes that people are deliberately cheating. It's the gentlemen game after all.  In your hypothetical situation, all the guy had to do is keep the stolen ball in his pocket and he would never be found out. The opportunities to cheat in golf are endless, maybe less so when a tournament has an audience or a TV crew following it, but still. You can't police that and we do have to assume that people are honest.  They be clueless (as the guy who can't differentiate a Titleist from a Bridgestone ball from 5 feet away), but not dishonest.  All bets are off if they are...

[Abu3baid]

Point well taken.. Maybe I took it too far with my example.  Thanks

44 minutes ago, sjduffers said:

Understood and this is a very good point, but this doesn't apply here as I didn't expect my ball to be where it was: it obviously hit that tree and came down quickly near it, instead of continuing on that line, possibly heading OB. I had no reason to suspect (or be virtually certain) that the FC hit my ball, until he coughed up to hit down by the green, after I hit my provisional (it is questionable whether or not it was closer to the hole than my expected original), and spent more than 5 minutes doing the rest of the nightmare...

I thought this was an interesting rule situation to bring up and appreciate all who answered it so very thoroughly. Cheers!

True.

In theory, yes.  In practice, no: there was no way for me to hit into the area where the bad decisions led me to hit 3 lost balls from where the original ball was, even with three bad decisions and/or swings in a row. I am certain the most likely score from there was a 5 or 6 (par 4), not 12.  But, I do get your point.

No it's not fair, but it's also premised on the intent of cheating.  Nothing in golf (or the rules of golf) assumes that people are deliberately cheating. It's the gentlemen game after all.  In your hypothetical situation, all the guy had to do is keep the stolen ball in his pocket and he would never be found out. The opportunities to cheat in golf are endless, maybe less so when a tournament has an audience or a TV crew following it, but still. You can't police that and we do have to assume that people are honest.  They be clueless (as the guy who can't differentiate a Titleist from a Bridgestone ball from 5 feet away), but not dishonest.  All bets are off if they are...

I meant to respond to this post!