Is This Legal - Marking Ball with Toe of Putter?

[ncates00]

10 minutes ago, denkea said:

USGA RULES OF GOLF
Play in all PGA TOUR cosponsored, approved or coordinated tournaments shall be con- ducted in accordance with the USGA Rules of Golf, as modified by PGA TOUR. A copy of such modifications, including Local Rules and Conditions of Competition for PGA TOUR, and a Notice to Competitors (Players), which shall describe any special Local Rules and Conditions, will be made available to players prior to their starting times.

 

Players Handbook and Tournament Regulations that you looked at doesn't include specific rules.  You would need to have access to "Special Local Rules and Conditions of Competition".

I made the statement which I know to be true.  Believe me or not.  If you don't, prove it to be false.  

How does this prove what you said?

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

How does this prove what you said?

It doesn’t. It’s him saying “I’ve seen a document you haven’t seen.”

Except that a few of us here have seen the document he’s citing.

[Rulesman]

1 hour ago, denkea said:

USGA RULES OF GOLF
Play in all PGA TOUR cosponsored, approved or coordinated tournaments shall be con- ducted in accordance with the USGA Rules of Golf, as modified by PGA TOUR. A copy of such modifications, including Local Rules and Conditions of Competition for PGA TOUR, and a Notice to Competitors (Players), which shall describe any special Local Rules and Conditions, will be made available to players prior to their starting times.

 

Players Handbook and Tournament Regulations that you looked at doesn't include specific rules.  You would need to have access to "Special Local Rules and Conditions of Competition".

I made the statement which I know to be true.  Believe me or not.  If you don't, prove it to be false.  

Under the Rules of Golf, which the PGA Tour specifically say they follow, they are not permitted to make any modifications that are not authorised by the USGA/R&A. The only modifications are those specified in the Committee Procedures section of the Rules of Golf. The prohibition on using clubhead is not one of them.

Incidentally, I have copies of the PGA Tour Hard Card with the Conditions of Competition and Local Rules going back to 2008. The is no mention of the subject on any of them. Do you have document saying they are prohibited?

Edited October 27, 2019 by Rulesman

[Slim_Pivot]

My dad used to have me play in his work league 10+ years ago. There was a guy in that league who was pretty good, but was the worst cheater I’ve ever seen; he always marked his ball like that (and would end up closer to the hole).

I wouldn’t be caught dead doing it, but I have a biased opinion cuz of that guy.

[iacas]

Looks like it's time to put up or shut up, @denkea.

I can't say definitively that I've not seen them on the hard cards, Local Rules, CoCs, etc. that I've seen over the years, but @Rulesman almost certainly can look at a copy right now, and I will take his word over yours at this point given you've produced nothing, and I know of @Rulesman's credentials.

[fredf]

Agree with the general view, assertions without evidence don't cut it. And there is no evidence yet demonstrated that the PGA of America has over-ridden the Rules on this issue.

As an aside, I can't find a PGA of America hard card, is one accessible online?  

[iacas]

43 minutes ago, fredf said:

Agree with the general view, assertions without evidence don't cut it. And there is no evidence yet demonstrated that the PGA of America has over-ridden the Rules on this issue.

As an aside, I can't find a PGA of America hard card, is one accessible online?  

You mean the PGA Tour. The PGA of America has not done anything with this rule. I've got hard cards and CoCs and so on from all levels of PGA of America championships.

[Asheville]

11 hours ago, denkea said:

USGA RULES OF GOLF
Play in all PGA TOUR cosponsored, approved or coordinated tournaments shall be con- ducted in accordance with the USGA Rules of Golf, as modified by PGA TOUR. A copy of such modifications, including Local Rules and Conditions of Competition for PGA TOUR, and a Notice to Competitors (Players), which shall describe any special Local Rules and Conditions, will be made available to players prior to their starting times.

 

Players Handbook and Tournament Regulations that you looked at doesn't include specific rules.  You would need to have access to "Special Local Rules and Conditions of Competition".

I made the statement which I know to be true.  Believe me or not.  If you don't, prove it to be false.  

Your appeal to ignorance is a sophomoric tactic. It's up to you, pal, to provide evidence for your assertion. Until then, the jury says you're full of it.

[fredf]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

You mean the PGA Tour. The PGA of America has not done anything with this rule. I've got hard cards and CoCs and so on from all levels of PGA of America championships.

Okay, thanks. Is there a single PGA Tour hard card and is it accessible online?

[Rulesman]

1 hour ago, fredf said:

Okay, thanks. Is there a single PGA Tour hard card and is it accessible online?

I could only find this but I believe the PGA Tour Australia is associated with or part of the PGA Tour

https://pga-tic.com/factsheets/2019/N053/File_1.pdf

[ChetlovesMer]

So, just so I understand. 
It looks like the toe of the putter thing is totally cool... ???

Even in PGA events, right? Unless we can find proof to the contrary... 

 

[fredf]

1 hour ago, Rulesman said:

I could only find this but I believe the PGA Tour Australia is associated with or part of the PGA Tour

https://pga-tic.com/factsheets/2019/N053/File_1.pdf

I'm familiar with that one, having refereed under that hard card.  Perhaps there is not a single PGA document equivalent in the USA.

[Asheville]

The PGA Tour Player Handbook & Tournament Regulations 2019-2020 provides this on page 133:

"Play in all PGA TOUR cosponsored, approved or coordinated tournaments shall be conducted in accordance with the USGA Rules of Golf, as modified by PGA TOUR. A copy of such modifications, including Local Rules and Conditions of Competition for PGA TOUR, and a Notice to Competitors (Players), which shall describe any special Local Rules and Conditions, will be made available to players prior to their starting times."

https://qualifying.pgatourhq.com/static-assets/uploads/2019-2020-pga-tour-handbook--regs-09_10_19.pdf

[DaveP043]

21 hours ago, Rulesman said:

Under the Rules of Golf, which the PGA Tour specifically say they follow, they are not permitted to make any modifications that are not authorised by the USGA/R&A. The only modifications are those specified in the Committee Procedures section of the Rules of Golf. The prohibition on using clubhead is not one of them.

This is what I was thinking of earlier in the thread.  To bar the use of a putter head to mark the ball, the Committee would have to institute a penalty for something that is specifically allowed under the rules, which is an action that the Committee is not allowed to take under the Rules of Golf.  This same basic discussion came up early in the year, when some people suggested that the PGA Tour wouldn't allow players to putt with the flagstick in the hole.  Again, that's something that the Committee may not do under the Rules.  The following is from Section 8L in Committee Procedures:

Quote

The Committee must not impose penalties when the Rules do not impose them

Under the old Rules, if I remember correctly, if the player accidentally moves his ball or his marker, other than in the process of marking, he was penalized.  I have to believe that this would apply if the putterhead moved while the player was cleaning his ball, or if the putter itself fell.  Nobody on the Tour would want to take that risk, its so much safer to mark the ball in the normal manner.  So while it may have been permissible to use the putterhead, it was a bad idea.  

[Rulesman]

It seems that the current PGA Tour hardcard is on their website but is only available to members who have registered.

My copies are in the form of locked PDFs so I can't post any extracts.

6 hours ago, ChetlovesMer said:

So, just so I understand. 
It looks like the toe of the putter thing is totally cool... ???

Even in PGA events, right? Unless we can find proof to the contrary... 

 

A few years ago the PGA Tour promised the USGA they would no longer introduce any local rules or conditions of competition that were not authorised by the USGA/R&A. To date, they have not broken their word

[Beastie]

In casual games I’ll mark with the putter, or a tee, coin or marker but in medal play or anytime the score actually matters I use a coin or marker. I expect most pros would feel using the putter as a marker in a PGA event would be a little casual, almost unprofessional.

[pganapathy]

On 10/21/2019 at 10:06 PM, billchao said:

 

@saevel25 beat me to it, but yes it's legal.

Legal yes, provided the club doesn't move.  If it does, then the place you replace the ball in is wrong.  I suppose technically you can't replace the ball exactly where it was (it will generally at least be one mm away), but the advantage of using a marker is nobody will ask the types of questions that OP did.  It is a lot easier to move the club a little bit, and hence place the ball in a wrong position, than if you use a marker

[Zeph]

There's no penalty for accidentally moving the marker as long as it is replaced. I don't see why a moved marker is easier to replace than a club.